Ungoliant?

[HobbitFriend]

When i read the part about Ungoliant, i couldn't help but imagine Shelob... weaving black webs about her.... Do you think they are in some way related? Are they one and the same? :huh: Or, are they totally different?

[Lady Ashley]

"...Shelob the Great, the last child of Ungoliant to trouble the unhappy world." Whether that means daughter or simply a decendent, who knows? But anyway, they're not the same, just related.

[Fatty]

Yes, I think she must have escaped the ruin of Beleriand and found her way to Cirith Ungol. Certianly she was not as great as Ungoliant, though still a great evil.

Nasty spiders :-)

[Lasgalen]

Originally posted by Lady Ashley
"...Shelob the Great, the last child of Ungoliant to trouble the unhappy world." (slightly off topic). I never thought about this before, but when I read your post I thought if Shelob is the last, then the giant spiders of Mirkwood must not be any relation to Ungoliant.

[Lady Ashley]

hmm well, that's what the book says! But it does say that her broods went all the way to Mirkwood, who they prolly are. Maybe she was a daughter of Ungoliant. But who knows? Anyone who's read the HOME series got any extra info? (I would read those but they're confusing to me..)

[Mirkgirl]

I haven't read HoME, but my theory is that Shelob was Ungoliant's daughter and she had some of the powers of her parent, while the Mirkwood spiders probably weren't first generation and weren't nearly as powerful as Shelob (but were many so no less scary)

[HobbitFriend]

ah, i see... thanks everyone :) I was thinking of the Mirkwood spiders too... but i didn't think they were really related at all... just another type of spider. They could possibly be Shelob's rather than Ungoliant's offspring :huh: but they're all the way in Mirkwood and Shelob is south on the border of Mordor.

[Lasgalen]

Ungoliant probably had more daughters than just Shelob. The Mirkwood spiders might possibly be the nieces and nephews of Shelob rather than her children.

[Saruman]

A family tree, which can be found here (http://aolsearch.aol.co.uk/redir.adp?appname=MS&query=tolkein%20encyclopedia&url=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2eglyphweb%2ecom%2farda%2f&datasource=google&partner=google&clickedItemRank=1&requestId=cns1&component=websearch.google.http.tcl&searchType=MS) (click on the 'S', then the 'Shelob' link), suggests that the Mirkwood Spiders were, indeed, Shelob's offspring, while most of Ungoliant's festered in Ered Gorgoroth.

[HobbitFriend]

oh wow! that's very helpful :) Thanks Saruman! I nearly forgot about The Encyclopedia of Arda! It's a wonderful reference :thumbs:

[Anduril Shines Again]

Yup, Shelob is the last spawn of Ungoliant left in ME. I kinda figured that out instantly...But hey...different people have different comprehensions...

[David D]

I think that Tolkien intended thier to be a connection between the death of Ungoliant's and her daughter Shelob. As we know Shelob was killed by the use of the light of Earendi's star. Tolkien earlier planned that Earendil would be the slayer of Ungoliant. Thus I think it would have ben quite fitting for Ungoliant to be killed by Earendi and a phial containing the light of his star was used by Sam to kill Shelob.

[HobbitFriend]

wow! great observation, David! :thumbs: and welcome to WotR!

[Gil Galad]

bu twas the idea of Earendel slaying Ungoliant not disgarded before final history of the world was finished by Tolkien and that the great spider infact consumed herself.


but it is an xcelent observation