Elves at Helms Deep

[Goldberry]

I just read an interview with Richard Taylor in issue 8 of the LOTR fan club magazine. He mentions that all the ELVES WERE KILLED IN HELMS DEEP. Does that surprise anyone else? I never thought of that & didn't pay attention in those last scenes at Helms Deep whether I saw any elves or not. Now that I think about, I don't remember seeing any elves. It seems like something should be said about the poor elves sacrificing themselves for the good of Middle Earth. Maybe in the extended version of TTT or ROTK?

I can't believe how sad it made my feel. I won't look at the scene with the arrival of the elves at Helms Deep the same anymore, knowing they are all going to the deaths. :(

[Lessa]

They missed at least one. Correct me if I'm wronng but isn't Legolas an elf?

Lessa

[Ithielnor]

Two elves are seen riding out behind Theoden. One is Legolas the other is believed by many people to be Arwen.

(bad elves shouldn't have been there anyway :p )

[Illuvatar]

Well...unfortunately there we dozens of Elves killed at HD including Haldir himself. It's a very emotional scene as you look at death through Haldir's eyes and he looks upon his fallen Elven Company. mecry

It't a fitting conclusion though, as when Haldir presents his company to Theoden at Helm's Deep (and gets his Arahug :p) he states that "It's been a long time since Elves and Men did battle together and the alliance of Elves and Men shall be forged anew today" or some thing like that. hehe So, as with the Last Alliance.... Men and Elves not only fought together, but died together as well.

Goldberry, if you do not remember seeing the Elves, they are the rows and rows of archer that Argorn commands and surround him on either side along the wall.

[Bilbo]

Originally posted by Illuvatar
Goldberry, if you do not remember seeing the Elves, they are the rows and rows of archer that Argorn commands and surround him on either side along the wall.

I think she meant not seeing any elves ALIVE at the end of the battle chief......:p

[Illuvatar]

Hey there Bilbo.....

You may be quite right!! lol

And if that was your intention Goldberry, then I humbly apologize! :blush:

It just sounded to me like you did not see any Elves at Helm's Deep at all! hehe :p

[Goldberry]

Ok, as Goldberry I am blonde & beautiful, but still have some brainslol Bilbo was right but I probably didn't explain myself well in my post because I am still traumatized about the Elves.;)

I did mean that I didn't see any Elves (other than Legolas) in the final battle scenes, if I remember right. But Richard Taylor did say that all of the Elves that came with Haldir were killed.

Someone else said there was another elf with Legolas in his last scene on horseback with Gandalf? That I don't remember either, & I saw TTT for the 14th time last week. oh, oh...in real life I'm blonde too. :blush:

[Lady Ashley]

I didn't notice any elves other than Leggy come riding horses out of the Hornburg...except for seeing Arwen (and that was only seeing her at the bottom, not coming down).

I agree with you, Goldberry, we'll prolly hear more about the Elves being killed in the Ext. (Ithielnor, I agree with you too...they shouldn't have been there....I always maintained that they only got what they deserved....but that's the purist in me....)

I'll be on the look-out for Elves following them out of the Hornburg! :grin:

[LoveroftheShire]

I have to say, I enjoyed seeing the Elves at HD, even though its not book true:blush:
I saw Elves going up the steps toward the building, right along with the Uruk-hai so there must have been a last ditch battle there at the door. Sad that they all die. Particularly seeing their death through the eyes of dying Haldir.

I think the Elves were dramatic. It also got rid of that question of 'what the heck are the Elves doing in the meantime for alot of people.

Arwen is at the bottom???

[Bilbo]

Not saying I didn't enjoy the Elves at Helm's deep. Infact, it was one of my fav moments from that entire film. The shot of all of them on the wall was great, with the rain pouring down and the blank looks on their faces that say "Bring it". PJ, YOU ARE BLOODY BRILLIANT!



:grin:

[Goldberry]

I was initially very adamant against any changes from the books to the movies. But I do love the addition of the Elves to Helm's Deep because if you haven't read the books, I think this adds to the nobility and courage of the Elves, which is not really emphasized before this. I love the whole scene of the Elves arriving and the dramatic soundtrack then. That is why I was so crushed to think that they didn't survive this battle.

I don't think, though, that Tolkien would have approved this addition, since his theme with the Elves was that they were leaving Middle Earth and their time of great deeds, etc. was mostly over by this time of the Third Age. :(

[Olsonm]

Unless he thought of it as an abstract way of representing the fighting and sacrifice of the elves in the War during the attacks on Lothlorien and Northern Mirkwood. PJ has said he was unable to fit in any references to those battles. :ring:

[Gilraen]

The elves shouldn't have been there anyway! They don't come to Helm's Deep in the book and they shouldn't have in the movie. I think Peter Jackson changed to much in the Two Towers. Tolkien was trying to make a point about the elves "fading" by not having them be very active in most of the fighting and the movie should have reflected that.

[Ereinion]

I positively hated the Elves showing up at Helm's Deep....It was another unnesesary Holywood adition...The alliance that was formed between the Elves and Men is gone forever,that's why it was called The LAST Alliance....Haldir saying that they "came to honor that alligiance" was just tastless and discracefull to all the Elves and Men who died in that war...The Elves are a fading race,and to bring them over just to prove Theoden wrong over Aragorn ("the old alliances are dead") was just childish....

[LoveroftheShire]

It was a bit of Holywood that worked for some.

I think Olsonm was right, PJ used this battle to show that the Elves were still involved in skirmishes. Can you really call this an Alliance, there were what 200 Elves, if that, at HD.... hardly comparable to the thousands at the Last Alliance. What is so distasteful about Haldir saying that he has come to honour that Alliance???

I think PJ chose to sacrifice the Elves at HD to again highlight the fading of the Elves, by having them all pass away, but thats just my opinion.
As it was, they made little difference to the outcome, Men still saved the day.

The Elves are a fading race,and to bring them over just to prove Theoden wrong over Aragorn ("the old alliances are dead") was just childish....
I never thought for a moment that this was PJs intention, to have this scene played out as you describe.

[Bilbo]

I really thought of their presence as a sacrifice rather than to show off hollywood style(;)). They laid their elven blood down to make sure Middle-earth passes in to the hands of Mankind, and not Sauron.......

[Elbereth]

I think it was good as it demonstrated the sacrifice. The elves were living ME to make way for the time of men - to me that seems like a sacrifice as well and they did fight in the wars as well, to defend their homes just as the men did.

Thought I must admit it seems a bit unlikely that all the elves were dead except legolas - is it definate that all those left alive rode out with Theoden? It just seems strange and a bit improbable for them all to die - but then again, probability is far from certain!

[Pil]

I think it would be wrong of PJ to suggest that all the elves would have been killed, i think this would give the wrong impression of the elves as warriors. it would be insulting to their skills. :nono: :p

[Elbereth]

Exactly, they were trained warriors who ably defended Lorien. If they were going to get killed by orcs it would have been while defending the borders of their home. I know that loads died when the orcs exploded the wall but there were still loads left afterwards and it seems improbable they would all have been killed in hand-to-hand combat after that. Perhaps we will have to wait for the extended version to find out.

[LoveroftheShire]

I was hoping there were others left and with the Rohan, maybe defending the woman as they go through the mountain, but it doesn't look like it. And I guess they're not likely to leave their King behind. I
I think there were enough shots of the Elves to let it generally be felt they were capable warriors, but this was open hand combat in those final stages, tiring business after a while.
But yes, maybe EE with solve things.

I watched TT and it does look like Legolas and one other Elf rode out with Theoden and these were the only one left.. :(

[Lessa]

It seems to me that a lot of people are waiting for the EE to resolve many issues about TTT. Here's hoping it does just that.

Lessa

[Goldberry]

Richard Taylor talked about the elves at Helm's Deep at the LOTR panel at ComicCon. It was mentioned again either by him or one of the other Weta staff that the elves gave their lives at Helm's Deep. If there had been a question & answer period, I would asked exactly what was their thinking in this. Richard Taylor was also hanging out one day in the LOTR Pavilion but I was volunteering & in another section. I would have liked to talked to him about it, and come to think of it, it would have been great to talk about other parts of the movies. I heard he was very accommodating to fans. Nothing like getting info from the horse's mouth.

I do agree with previous posts that I think that the whole scenario is looked at as a huge sacrifice made by the elves for Middle Earth. mecry