Tolkien & C.S.Lewis [Archive] - War of the Ring Community

Periantari Andruil

July 20th,2003, 08:58 AM

good question, Ludibunda...i just found something relating to that in his biography...
But firstly, Tolkien and Lewis were very good friends... they were part of the group of writers called the Inklings that met at Oxford to comment upon each other's works...
Lewis's conversion to Christianity "marked a new stage in his friendship with Tolkien"...
the reason as to why perhaps Tolkien friendship with Lewis waned a bit were because of several reasons...

(from my newly purchased Humphrey Carpenter biography on Tolkien) ;)
In part the friendship's decay may have been hastened by Lewis's sometimes stringent criticicms of detials in The Lord of the Rings particularly his comments on the poems which he tended to dislike. Tolkien was often hurt by Lewis's comments, and he generally ignored them...
(pg. 204, "JRR Tolkien, a biography")

Tolkien, i think, liked his poems that he included, and some that he included in LOTR were poems that have background from the Silmarillion, which he wished had been published along with LOTR at that time when Sil still needed a little more work...

Also, he didn't like Lewis's Chronicles of Narnia and thought them a little too quickly done for Lewis wrote them in seven years, "less than half the period in which The Lord of the Rings gestated", and thought that some of his ideas were utilized in the "Chronicles" as well.

Tolkien also wrote in 1964,
'It is sad, that 'Narnia] and all that part of C.S.L.'s work should remain outside the range of my sympathy, as much of my work was outside his.' (pg. 204, "JRR Tolkien, a biography")

In some ways, you can think of it as some type of jealousy as to Lewis being so successful in his children's stories and writing them in so little time in comparison to him....

It also notes that their friendship also waned a bit because they worked away from each other for a time because Lewis was elected to a new chaif of Medieval and Renaissance Literature at Cambridge and so Tolkien and he met up only occasionally.
(pg. 205, "JRR Tolkien, a biography")

hope that helps, Ludibunda =) :thumbs:

:ring:

Ludibunda

July 20th,2003, 09:35 PM

Thanks PA,

I had known they were both supportive and critical of each other. SIlly me to think a couple of older academics should be above petty jealousy & cattiness. (esp, since both professed to be religious)
Such is the beauty of a mythical tale - the characters can transcend the ugliness of human nature. I think I might stick with the stories and skip the bios for a while.

Ludibunda

July 22nd,2003, 02:14 AM

Ahhh - now I see! It was that topic of religion that further drove in the sword. Each was so devout in their separate Christian faiths that they made digs at each other, taking offense and allowing the hurt to fester. How sad.
It also turns out one Mr Williams of the Inklings came between them, being admired by Lewis and loathed by Tolkien, even inspiring the character of Saruman.

Periantari Andruil

July 25th,2003, 05:40 PM

Williams inspired the character of Saruman? that indeed is interesting... but i thought at first, before the writing of LOTR, Lewis and Tolkien were really good friends because Lewis had converted to Christianity...how would that have impeded upon their friendship?
i thought the reason for their demise in friendship was opposing views about certain aspects of LOTR. but not religion...or am i mistaken?
, =)

Ludibunda

July 25th,2003, 06:25 PM

I am reading a book called Tolkien's Sanctifying Myth by Bradley Birzer . The chapters on the life and work of Tolkien and Myth & Sub-creation talk a lot about how Lewis and Tolkien encouraged each other. Tolkien introduced Lewis to Christianity, but Lewis did NOT embrace Catholicism. Tolkien only published Lord of the Rings with Lewis' encouragement and insistence. But Tolkien was very devotely and (militantly) a Catholic, criticising protestantism in public. This definitely drove a wedge between the two men. WIlliams stepped into the friendship favoring Lewis and Tolkien resented their closeness. The reference in the book says," Tokien believed strongly in the devil, fearing his powerful ability to tempt. He feared knowledge of or flirtation with any form or evil, something Wiliams (gnostic) seemed to do constantly, possibly influencing Lewis to do the same. As Elrond says, explaining why Saurman had turned to evil, "It is perilous to study too deeply the arts of the enemy"
So that's where I'm getting these ideas. I don't know how credible Birzer is, the forward is by Joseph Pearce. Do you know these names? Do you think I may be getting bad information?

Periantari Andruil

July 28th,2003, 02:59 AM

i'm not familiar with the book, and do not know how familar Bradley Birzer is with Tolkien and the Inklings..but if your read that somewhere... i guess it has some amount of truth right? =)
But according to the biography from Humphrey Carpenter, i thouhgt i read that Lewis's conversion to Christianity "marked a new stage in his friendship with Tolkien"... did he convert to a different sect of Christianity? i guess the differences in sects drove them apart then as well as the literary aspects of their lives?

Ludibunda

July 28th,2003, 12:23 PM

Periantari Andruil

August 2nd,2003, 04:47 AM

Thanks Ludibunda for the info :thumbs:
i guess different sects of Christianity can indeed bring on tension ... :mmmm:

Catz

August 6th,2003, 11:09 AM

i think that Tolkien felt betrayed that Lewis, drawn back to religion by his association with Tolkein, chose the religion of his youth, rather then Catholicism........he didnt introduce him to christianity per se, but rather showed him that christianity need not be the distasteful thing that he remembered from his childhood.....there was also the matter of Lewis' marriage which drove a wedge between the two men......there were also some less than tactful critiques on both their parts of each others work.
and i dont think it was a matter of not feeling that protestantism was good enough as that to a catholic of Tolkiens stripe, there WAS no other true path.........he truely felt that his friend was risking his immortal soul by choosing to be a practising protestant......that choice saddened him immensely
:catz:

HobbitFriend

August 9th,2003, 09:24 PM

wow, this is interesting! I would never have thought that Tolkien and Lewis would grow apart in their friendship because of religion of all things! It's strange, because I'm a protestant, yet I almost totally agree with everything Tolkien says and writes about relating to Christianity! :huh: There is so much controversy with religion ... i mean all through history too! not just today... it brings people together, tears them apart...

Ludibunda

August 13th,2003, 01:29 PM

Yes, HobbitFriend - I marvel that religion is so devisive like that with many, many topics. But there is great value in the discussion that it stirred. And I also agree that the ultimate message Tolkien gives in his writing is perpetual hope...a common theme through all the denominations and religions of the world.

HobbitFriend

August 13th,2003, 10:16 PM

Originally posted by Ludibunda
And I also agree that the ultimate message Tolkien gives in his writing is perpetual hope...a common theme through all the denominations and religions of the world. amen to that! lol

Grim006

April 22nd,2005, 04:31 PM

hey thanks a lot for all this cool info guys, i am doing a report on C.S. Lewis and had always heard that him and Tolkien were friends so i decided to investigate. This is some really interesting stuff that i had never really known. And i definitely agree that religion can get in between people, i dont know how many churches i have seen split from arguments over what the bible says. I think we just need to teach the way it was written and not ask whether it is biblical to have a kitchen in the fellowship hall.

Ludibunda

April 22nd,2005, 04:55 PM

religion is an imperfectly human institute. i think it is in faith that one might find some purity and hope. i recently joined a ten-member Friends' Meeting and even they have a member leaving over difference of interpretation. it took 20 minutes to decide who would bring refreshments and if we should include glucose free snacks. humans get so into the business of organizing and petty details. and yet it is very lonely without each other. perhaps that is why Lewis and Tolkien still tried to remain friends.

Aletheia

April 22nd,2005, 05:12 PM

I agree....I have had some frighteningly bad experiances with what happens when human imperfection takes hold in religious organizations. Faith is quite different though, in fact, its the only reason I get up in the morning. :p Hope is a reverberating theme in both Tolkein and Lewis's works, and thats probably one of the reasons I love them both so much. And, if nothing else, they certanly were two of the most influential and intellegent men of our time, and I am sure that in being friends, they challenged each other to excel. I think their friendship, however strained at times, was an amazing and wonderful thing.
I'm at work right now, so forgive me if I dont sound to intellegent...I will have to come back and sift my way through this thread and read up.....I cant believe I only just found it now!

~Leia:rose:~

Ludibunda

April 22nd,2005, 05:47 PM

Ha, ha I'm at work too - ain't we bad? You made several good points and as far as sounding smart, intelligence is truly over-rated. It can be disasterous if not tempered by kindness. Tolkien's tendernesses towards his wife and children are an assurance that his recluse was more escape than arrogance. Yep, yep - debate coupled with tolerance makes the world go round.

Ludibunda

April 22nd,2005, 06:11 PM

Ah - you mentioned hope. To many the resilient hobbits, grandfatherly wizard, handsome humans and strong woman in Tolkien's good vs evil plot are enough to entertain. But I have heard of those who attribute the message of hope to much more. Infact, they credit Tolkiens trilogy with keeping them sober, hanging on the live side of self-injury, and finding a higher power that keeps them from being alone (as loneliness can be a deadly weapon).

I've heard readers/views lament that Frodo went off the the Grey Havens with Bilbo, as if it were a death. To me it seemed hope in a future - the removal of the sadness he couldn't escape in Bagend.

Periantari Andruil

April 30th,2005, 08:09 AM

So nice to see you again, Ludibunda~! :cuddles: missed ya in here =)

Good points that both of you raise, LUdi and Aleth!! :thumbs: :thumbs:
And thank you Grim for revitalizing this thread a bit for discussion! :thumbs:

And, if nothing else, they certanly were two of the most influential and intellegent men of our time, and I am sure that in being friends, they challenged each other to excel. I think their friendship, however strained at times, was an amazing and wonderful thing.

Very good point~! I think their friendship was an important inspiration for both to have. I mean, Tolkien was part of the Inklings, a literary group which met often to critique each other's works and Lewis was a part of that too. I remember that Tolkien was amazed at the speed that Lewis wrote his Chronicles of Narnia while Tolkien took a good 12 years to write LotR lol

I've heard readers/views lament that Frodo went off the the Grey Havens with Bilbo, as if it were a death. To me it seemed hope in a future - the removal of the sadness he couldn't escape in Bagend.
It's a bittersweet end. I mean it's hard for all who love him: Sam, Merry, Pippin to let go of Frodo but of course peace and tranquility is what Frodo is seeking when he leaves teh Shire and Middle Earth. It's just so much innocence has been lost and mecry it's sad that Frodo could never find peace in Middel Earth.
Though this is kinda off topic, (and can be continued in 'nother thread ;) ) i find it definitely relevant to mention the transistion of states of Frodo and for Tolkien, he led a life full of changes and loss too... and this is reflective in writing LotR.

Ludibunda

May 1st,2005, 01:42 AM

Thank you so much for the warm welcome! It's very encouraging!

Well, I guess that everyone loses their innocence. A higher purpose is to save middle earth and a special reward is surely earned for the self-sacrifice.

Now you have me very curious about the specific paralleles to Tolkiens losses and Frodos. You are by far the most knowledgable - so please indulge us (starting a new thread if you think that's necessary)

JemFinch

May 1st,2005, 10:25 AM

In some ways, you can think of it as some type of jealousy as to Lewis being so successful in his children's stories and writing them in so little time in comparison to him....

I know this was posted years ago, but I had to comment on it:
There was no jealousy involved AT ALL. Tolkien said himself he disliked allegory; Chronicles of Narnia is an allegory. I can't remember all that went on, but there were several issues. I know in the later years when Lewis remarried, Tolkien disagreed, even though Lewis's first wife had died. And even though they were good friends, I'm sure they had serious disagreements about issues: Tolkien was a Catholic, Lewis a Protestant. But no jealousy involved. :rolleyes:

And I also agree that the ultimate message Tolkien gives in his writing is perpetual hope...a common theme through all the denominations and religions of the world.

No...(what I'm about to say is going to sound a bit "untolerant", but it seems that most of us in this thread are Christians, so you know what I mean. ;) ) I only believe that there is ONE hope: Christ. Not in any other religions. It's a hard road to take, but we have faith in that hope. ;)

Ludibunda

May 1st,2005, 04:07 PM

Wow! How to put this gently......

The biographies and autogbiographies suggest there was a bit of angst, probably jealousy. And unless you are privy to the minds of these two men, you cannot negate a comment to that effect, one way or the other. So please try to be polite to all posters in your "certainty"

Also, while I have great faith and hope in God, I would not call myself a Christian. In fact, only two of the many, many international folk I've made friends with over my 2 years on this site would claim that title. It is very important, on a site of this nature, to stretch yourself to BE TOLERANT. Share of your beliefs, but don't insist they are the only way - or even the majority view.

JemFinch

May 1st,2005, 07:59 PM

I'm sorry, I wrote that when I was pretty tired, and feeling pretty frustrated with stuff...I had not read the biography, so I guess I jumped to some conclusions. :blush:
And, I'm sorry Ludibunda, I put it the wrong way...it was what Tolkien believed. I was responding to when someone said
"And I also agree that the ultimate message Tolkien gives in his writing is perpetual hope...a common theme through all the denominations and religions of the world." I'm sorry, I responded completely wrong. lol *hits head* What I MEANT is that Tolkien believed in one hope, and to make him super tolerant would be untrue to him, as he was a Catholic Christian, and attended mass every morning.
I don't take back what I say, because it is what I believe, and I can't deny what I believe, or else I'd be a complete coward...but that is not to be argued here, not the right place. I should not have brought it up. :grin:
And I'm sorry I made assumptions about your faith. I just assumed that many people in this thread would be, since most seemed to love C.S. Lewis for his allegory. (And I know there ARE a few here who do take the title. ;) )
*shakes hands with Ludibunda* lol

Ludibunda

May 1st,2005, 09:22 PM

Awww, that is truly a sweet response. I have also posted when tired and had to make little corrections. Thanks for the clarification.

It is undisputable that Tolkien was influences and inspired by his Catholic faith. I have read that lembos was meant to be communion wafer and other specifically Catholic illusions. I think the notion of hope can be generalized and used by any faith (or non-faith) but in this case, it came as a message directly from Tolkien's Christianity.

I suspect each faith tradition has much it could lend to others in the way of healthy living and purpose. It is wonderful that (imo) Creator is big enough to be able to have many ways for different cultures to "find the way"

PS My email is jkmunday@aol.com and I'd be glad to have private & friendly conversation on the topic of religion.

JemFinch

May 1st,2005, 11:49 PM

Thanks Ludi. :smooch:
I've heard that bit about the lembas as well, but I believe we can't put LOTR into a "1:1 distillation, which Tolkien detested", as Olyane put it in the thread "Messages to the real world", in this forum. There's a big difference between Lewis and Tolkien, which I said earlier. Rather than allegory, it's more the themes, and in the subcreation...but I'm not all that great at explaining this, so I'm going to shut up. lol

I agree....I have had some frighteningly bad experiances with what happens when human imperfection takes hold in religious organizations.

I know!!! :rolleyes: We've left so many churches because of different reasons..but it all comes down to our sin. No human establishment is perfect. All we can do is trust in God, and wait for Christ to come.
*sigh*

Ludibunda

May 2nd,2005, 12:16 AM

Hey JemFinch,

I think you explained that really well (about the difference in how Tolkien and Lewis infuse religion) That's why I find Tolkien a more intellectual and satisfying read - it's not all obvious. The story is it's own and the characters are complex.

Blessings on you - hope to see you in another thread somewheres ;)

Aletheia

May 2nd,2005, 01:10 AM

Oh, definately! I love that no matter how many times I read Tolkien, I can draw different allusions to things and apply them to my own experiences....there seems to be more and more symbolism poking out at me everytime I go back for a read. Thats why its such a great story; the themes are so immortal and can b applied to so many things.
I kind of have had the same sort of experience with Lewis's 'Till We Have Faces' (anyone read it?) Its a re-telling of the myth of Psyche from Greek Mythology. I think it took me at least 2 reads to really pull out all the not-so-apparant themes that run through it, and I can still go back and get more out of it....though despite the obvious allegorical nature of the Chronicals, I have still found them to be universaly applicable.
I think it all comes back to these themes of friendship, unconditional love, and hope, as well as the obvious good vs. evil.

On a side note, I am going to be taking a college class devoted to analysing Tolkien'd and Lewis's works next year! :whoohoo: Im looking forward to it so much! (See, it does pay to take AP classes ;) skipping all those dull gen-eds is such a plus lol)
I only wish you guys could come be in the class w/ me :cuddles: Im sure we would have some great dicussions! (and some great fun too :grin: )

I know!!! We've left so many churches because of different reasons..but it all comes down to our sin. No human establishment is perfect.
yeah, amen & amen. As a pastor's daughter in a major protostant demonimation, I have seen all the inner workings of church politics. Not such a pretty thing to know, believe me! Sometimes it is *very* hard to figure out what I believe. I admire your courage and faith, hun. Its tough not to get jaded in today's world.

JemFinch

May 2nd,2005, 02:07 AM

Thanks, Ludi..I agree. :thumbs:
Pastor's daughter...wow. My uncle is a pastor, and it is a really strict, fundamentalist church. But they tend to only preach the law, and harp on these people, and fill them with guilt...just a bunch of rules, no grace, no love. So now my cousins are getting older, they're beginning to rebel, it's very sad to see the concupiscence. We need GRACE more than anything.
Not all that courageous, Leia. :-/ There are so many struggles, and temptations, and I succumb to them all the time. But thank God for forgiveness!!! I desperately need it. ;)
Oh wow, that sounds like a great course!!! Wish we could be there, that would be so much fun!! Stupid high school, no Tolkien courses. lol

Ludibunda

May 2nd,2005, 04:28 AM

"I only wish you guys could come be in the class w/ me "

Well you BETTER be starting some mad threads after class every day!!! :)

Aletheia

May 2nd,2005, 04:47 AM

hehehe, ;) will do, Ludi :thumbs: Im excited to see what we'll get to cover! :hyper:

Periantari Andruil

May 3rd,2005, 08:26 AM

Hiya,
just a friendly reminder to please stay on-topic... this thread is to talk about Tolkien and CS Lewis ...any other topics, please start another thread (perhaps one about "Random thoughts about Tolkien" or something ;) ):thumbs:

Thanks, mellyn nin~ =) :frodo:

WaMoZ

May 19th,2005, 08:17 AM

On one of the EE Extras DVDs (probably TTT) one of the JRRT experts interviewed says that CSL's physicality was possibly a major inspiration for Treebeard! No, he did not look like a tree! lol He was simply a big man with a deep resounding voice that could easily be heard in the corridor outside one of his lectures. This 'sound-effect' may very well have been the genesis of the "Hoom hoom" of Treebeard's voice. A really nice little theory, which I hope is true.

Aragorn

May 21st,2005, 09:36 PM

Right! Lewis was a"mere" Protestant which Tolkien didn't consider good enough next to his own Catholicism. He made comments about Catholicism being true because of it's clear sacraments and Protestantism being "watered-down" He didn't seem to realize that being both Christian, they were on the same team, and if fact, being Godly, they were also both part of a larger picture. In fact, in being Christian, they are both in a minority religion.

I just wanted to add that I was raised as a Roman Catholic (gave it up years ago), so I know that the Roman Catholic church teaches that only Catholics have any hope of getting to heaven. So to Tolkien, there was indeed a world of difference between the two men's faiths. If Tolkien really cared for his friend Lewis and Tolkien was a devout Catholic, he would be convinced that Lewis was damned to never see heaven and would likely be very hurt by that. It's very possible that if Tolkien could not convince his friend to convert to Catholicism, he may have reacted to this by allowing it to affect their friendship. That makes a world of sense to me, but I don't know how much of this was the true motivation between the two men.

I just felt I should point that out as most in the discussion seemed to not see how the religious differences were that big. They were in fact huge to Tolkien.