Elf/Human/Orc armies resemble what Real Earth army?

[Finrod Felagund]

:knight: :archer: :battle:
This question does not refer to appearance but tactics and level of skill
Here are my impressions:

Elves: Samurai
Human:
Gondor: Roman ( at least discipline and skill wise not necessarily tactics)
Rohan: Mongol
Easterling: Muslim
Orc: Barbarian hordes of early Roman era

Opinions, Thoughts??

[Orc]

The Rohan more resembled Vikings in my mind, and I think that is how Tolkien intended on portraying them to some extent from what I have head. Minus the long ships of course...

Dunlanders: Scotti or Pitci tribes

[Steve the Great]

Okay, here is my conception:
- Elves: I take for them individual warriors rather then soldiers marching in pre-defined formation into the battle. In the third age they made some kind of guerilla warefare (e.g. against the orcs in Lothlorien). - So certain Oriental armies can be their equivalent (IMHO).
- Gondorians: Yeah, maybe the roman army is a good example, or we can mention the medieval english or french forces too (knights, infantry, archers, discipline, etc :) )
- Rohirrim: I think they'd rather resembled to nations using heavy cavalry (e.g. normans, sarmatians, )
- Easterlings: hm... maybe turkish forces from the 14th-16th centrury (except their firearms lol), or medieval indian armies (using of war elephants)
- Orcs: Orcish forces of Moria and Mordor may behave like barbarian hordes, but the Uruk-hai were much more disciplined (see also in the Ugluk's Stand in the Armoury section :naughty: ) They're similar to greek or macedonian forces

And two other races: :grin:
- Dwarves: Maybe they have a little similarity to roman forces since they use sometimes strict formations (but their weapons were totally different, of course)
- Wild men of Duneland: wild tribes of barbarians (maybe celticis or saxons?) during the period of the early Roman Empire

[Finrod Felagund]

Orc:
I could be way off here but to me it seemed that the Rohan culture revolved around the horse like the 19th century American Indian horse cultures or Mongols. Were the Vikings a horse culture also? But yes, I do belive the Prof intended them to resemble the Vikings in appearance and manner.

Steve:
I completly forgot about the English and French of the Hundred Years War period, that makes much more sense.

[Friend of Maglor]

V. nice thread!! Finrod, i beleive that the Rohirrim were made to resemble the Notherish Vikingish men... they do speak old english

[Sindarin]

Elves - Samurai Warriors
Gondor - Roman (Preatorian) Legions
Rohan - Viking
Duneland - Pict
Easterling - Medieval Indian
Dwarves - perhaps ancient Germanic Tribes
Orcs - Barbarian Hordes

[Friend of Maglor]

Dunland is Pict.....wow, never would have thought of that

[Ceri Bloom]

Barbarian hordes lol... my sides are splitting roflmao...so funny :grin:

[Hobbit]

Elves: I agree with Steve here. At the end of the third age they used some kind of guerilla tactics. For what it's worth: the Lorien warriors kind of reminded me of the men of Robin Hood. lol

Gondor: English and French forces from the hundred years war period

Rohan: early medieval french army. (during the days of the french emperor Charles the great ) They both have an important knightstructure and the weapons, tactics and skills of the french knights was kinda equal to those of the Rohirrim.

dunland: I agree with Orc on pict and scotti tribes

Easterling: Carthago, or at least it resembles the army of Hannibal from the second punich war against Rome. Hannibal also made use of infantry as well as horsemen and of course elephants. Even in appearance the easterlings kind of resemble the armies of carthago.

Orc: the barbarian hordes of the Roman time period. (although it is kind of a wide discription for the romans and greeks were quick to call other people barbarians)

Uruk Hai: Roman army (they have the skill and the cruel, hard disipline of the Roman army and (in the movie at least) they also used roman tactics with long spears, ladders, huge siege engines and of course the famous turtle formation)

[Friend of Maglor]

COOL Uruks as Romans!!!

But please, i wouldn't equate the Gondorians with the French...

And i think Hannibal is an interesting take on the easterlings, but i have always thought of his troops as more sophisticated and Roman like......but maybe your right... I just have this nagging feeling i have forgotten one of the most easterling-like armies ever......ooooh

[Hobbit]

Friend of Maglor, I wrote down that the Gondorian army resembles a late medievel europian army and the english and french armies from the 100 year war are good examples. And dispite what some people think of the french, they're a great and glorious folk.
They were the first europian folk to become big and strong after the fall of the west roman empire and even now they are still very important in europe. Untill WW1 they were one of the greatest superpowers in the world and they brought forth one of the greatest military commanders and rulers in history: Napolean Bonaparte. Also the ideas of french philosophers inspired the americans before and after the revolution and war against england.
And in the 100 year war they proved their strenght when they conquered back, in one year, big parts of the land they had lossed after many years of war, becouse of the great female commander Joan d'Arc.
So the French are quite cool actually :rock:

And yeah, Hannibal's troops did look a bit romanlike but that's becouse they both used about the same type of warfare as the greeks and macedonian armies. Also in the movie the easterling armour and weapons did have a hint of ancient style in it.

[Friend of Maglor]

very informative! lol id admit you win about the French when it comes to Joan d'Arc she rox :thumbs:

I have no prejuduce against the french nowadays, I just have a hardy grudge against William the Conqueror!! lol

And Tolkien once said that he imagined the numenoreeans as a VERY Egypt-like civilization

[Ereinion]

Originally posted by Friend of Maglor
And Tolkien once said that he imagined the numenoreeans as a VERY Egypt-like civilization

The way the preserved and worshipped the dead? I got the same impression reading about their fear of dying....

[Friend of Maglor]

lol....well he got down to the crown design too, its all in peoples of Middle Earth...

[Ereinion]

*trying to stop herself from screaming* Got-to-get-that-$%^*$#@-book!!!!!! Got to do some store-searching, maybe there'll be something in English.....

[Steve the Great]

Here's a part of a letter from Tolkien concerning this Egypt-similarity:

"The Númenóreans of Gondor were proud, peculiar, and archaic, and I think are best pictured in (say) Egyptian terms. In many ways they resembled 'Egyptians' ? the love of, and power to construct, the gigantic and massive. And in their great interest in ancestry and in tombs. (But not of course in 'theology' : in which respect they were Hebraic and even more puritan ? but this would take long to set out: to explain indeed why there is practically no oven 'religion', or rather religious acts or places or ceremonies among the 'good' or anti-Sauron peoples in The Lord of the Rings.) I think the crown of Gondor (the S. Kingdom) was very tall, like that of Egypt, but with wings attached, not set straight back but at an angle."

[Friend of Maglor]

yay for Steve!!! thats what i refferd too..........

[Morgothian]

Elves, greek
Gondorians, roman
Rohan, Scandanavian
Dwarves , viking
Orcs, barbarian
Easterlings, egyptian

[Witch King of Angmar]

Rohan: Franks of the early middle ages
Gondor: Medival armies, like said above, English or French 100 years war.
Elves: Very adaptable, eg, Haldir leads them into a straight fight in Helms deep, but also the elves are excellent at a ambush etc, so yeah an oriental army.
Dwarves: Scandinavian/Germanic tribes
Easterlings: Persians/Scaracens
Orcs: Barbarian tribes
Uruk Hai: Spartans, no cowardice, prime physical strength.

[Eomund]

I look from weapons but i think that :

Rohan: Muslims
Gondor: French
Dwarves: Vikings
Orcs: barbarians
Uruk-Hai: Roman
Grey-Elves: English (both use bows much)
Haradrim: Indian or Persians
Noldo: Teutons
Easterlings: Greek
Hobbits(I know they had no real army but i had to put this one): celts

[Flanyboy4]

Elf English (primarily the welsh longbow and great fighters)
Gon Byzantine (eastern roman empire lasted till 1400s)
Roh Huns
Dwar Vikings
Orcs barbarian tribes roman and slightly later period peoples
Urk Romans early Romans
Easterlings Carth

P.S. someone said Napoleon was French that is entirely wrong napoleon was not a Frenchman. Nothing against French or anything I am part French.

[Steve the Great]

Very interesting remarks, guys... :thumbs:
But it also would be very useful that you'd give the reason(s) of resemblance (mainly in the field of tactics) - e.g. I found the rohirrim <-> muslim resemblance quite novel

Flanyboy4: As far as I know Napolenon was born in Corsica right after the French occupation - so he wasn't a native Frenchman indeed. But later he became the head of French Army and the Emperor of France, so I think it's not a very serious misstake to say him French. But after all, you're right... :grin:
btw. welcome to WotR :wave:

[Eomund]

Rohan: Muslims - great cavalry, best cavalry tactics in ME or ME2 (medieval europe)
Gondor: French - for thei pressure in Medieval Europe and their cavalry and infantry
Dwarves: Vikings- axeman, few archers, etc..
Orcs: barbarians - unciviliseced
Uruk-Hai: Roman-highly diciplined army
Grey-Elves: English (both use bows much) - as i said bows
Haradrim: Indian or Persians - for war-elephants and armor
Noldo: Teutons-because both but real pressure on infantry
Easterlings: Greek- for their infantry and pikemen....

[Flanyboy4]

Thanks for the welcome Steve and I agree it isn’t much of a deal saying that napoleon was French except i read a book made about the invasion of Russia it is a journal of one of napoleons generals and napoleon always referred to himself as Corsican not French in fact in napoleons early years he got himself in trouble fighting for Corsican independence.
P.S. Back on the issue I decided the gondor forces were like the Byzantines because the eastern roman empire had extreme discipline just like the army of gondor but also the east Romans were some of the best equipped and trained forces as well as the fact that they had the best heavy infantry in Europe for most of there existence as well as the Byzantines having non regular troops that were extreme fighters but not normally in the ranks of the army (the rangers) these men were very weal trained experts at tracking and ambushing and great individual fighters (only variation from gondor is many of the Byzantines soldiers of this class were mercenaries.)

[Gil Galad]

Men-
Gondor-
Minas Tirith: Byzantine, many wallled city, well armed, disiplined, using allot of troops for "tributary"regions

Dol Amroth: Authers Knights of Celtic history or perhaps Franch Knights(although more disiplined then the Frankish Knights)

Rangers of Ithilien: Scottish highlanders, hit and run attacks


Easterling-
Wainriders: Assyrian, use of chariots, ruthless

Khand?(the guys that fought in pelanor): Greek Hoplites, disiplined, welll armed, use of pikes and pole weapons


Harad: Hanibals, using Elepahants as shock units

Rohan:Saladins army, using there speed to cut there enemys number down with bow fire before engaging them.but aht would work as Mongol either. but they were a heavier mounted force then either of them....so perhaps early Frank, Charlemagnes(inspired by Muslims into mounting his forces) time


Dunland: always tought of them as Pictish, or perhaps english occupied Scottish highlanders, herdmen and such but an effective fighting force when they wish.



Elves-
Noldo: Byzantine, skilled well armed , effective use of cavalry.

Lothlorien: North Vietnamise during both french and american occupations. effective geurilla tactices

Greenwood: Frankish Knights(100 years war) excelent fighters but indisiplined, rushing into battle at the Dagorlad like the French Knights did at Agincourt

Vanyar:not much said about them but i think either Tuetonic knights or Samurai for there basic unbeatability on the fieldof battle, or perhaps Spartans or Imortals from the persian army

Havens(Cirdans folk):Viking, in the wars with morgoth they carried out fast strikes and then retreated back to the sea before effective resistance could be mustered


Dwarrow: lets see, excellent specialised warriors, able to muster great forces at need......id say..........Celtic perhaps or maybe Spartan with almost every able bodied male able to fight


Orcs-
Moria: perhaps the early Germanic peoples who enter the roman empire, not very good warriors but in large numbers incredbly dangerous

Mordor: simmilar but perhaps the later poelpes maybe the Goths(although of les martial prowess)

Uruk-Kai: Spartan sonds good, warrior culture, displined


there i think thats my 2 cents

[Eomund]

I wanted to say that as i know Saladin had great heavy cavalry as those Golden Mamelukes. Very true!!!

[Gil Galad]

oh yeh i forgot about those Mamelukes, that would make them a perfect correspondance with Rohan(or the other way about) in military style and fighting prowess

[Eomund]

Oh yes. That is it. Who are the dwarrow???

[Gil Galad]

oh sorry Dwarves/Dwarfs are the Dwarrow, i belive its an old english(or something) name for them, and Tolkien says in places that he should have used that name instead of Dwarves(which he used instead of the proper word "Dwarfs"so as to match beter with Elves)

[Eomund]

Then id say that they should be Vikings, for their helmets and weaponry. Also their tactics are the same. Why did you say that Frankish knights are like Mirkwood elves? They'd better match English peasants (on need to get an army, then longbows).

[Gil Galad]

oh that was because.......they rushed into battle despite the urging and attempts of the King(Gil Galad) to calm them down and order them. but thats just from the last allinace so, id imagine, a more hit and run force would be closer to them during the War of The Ring, but since i couldnt find much of there tactics from then or from the battle of the Five Armies, i went with the only thing i could find about them

[Eomund]

Did Mirkwood have cavalry? Then did elves have cavalry at all?

[Gil Galad]

im not sure if they(Mirkwood) did. but the High Elves of the first age did, they had Stalions which were brought from Valinor, and they grew numerous on the green plains that grew outside of morgoths front door, and Fingon used Calvary archers to strike at Glaurung when he showed himself first

[Eomund]

but know about lorien??? i dont think they had for horses wouldwe runnen into trees...lol

[Gil Galad]

but u can have the same tactics as someone without having the same equipment. well in the hobbit Mirkwood Elves were not mounted anyway

[Eomund]

they weren't.....but have you ever met ancient Hungarians........

[Steve the Great]

Ummm... what's the problem with the ancien Hungarians? :elfeek: ;)

[Eomund]

not you:roflmao:! i meant that they were great riders and warriors....

[Gil Galad]

yeh most of the Eastern Europeans, even the Byzantines developed excelent Calvaries, probably from dealing with the Asian and Arabic cultures

[Eomund]

and they had horse from the steppes....

[Gil Galad]

Yes excelent horse country so its only natural that they were competant on horseback and then it would only be a matter of time before they turned it too military uses

[Eomund]

hey......im thinking how archers could stop charging cavalry.....Agincourt......?????......

[Gil Galad]

well that was probably more due to the wet ground and the hills that the knights hads to go up, but that was due to good deployment byt the archers, and the indiscipline of the Frankish Knights

[Eomund]

indiscipline.....that was right but i meant on a plain.....i dont recall name of the battle but archers stopped there charging cavalry.....