Was Dior a Man or an Elf?

[Lasgalen]

Dior is the son of Beren, a mortal Man and Luthien, a half Elf-half Maia who became mortal and who passed beyond this world when she died. Since both of Diors parents are mortal, he should be as well. Yet many people consider him an Elf. His marriage to an Elf maiden is apparently not counted among the Elf/Man unions. He was accepted as the ruler of Doriath, a kingdom of Elves. So which is he?

[Ereinion]

Since he WAS the ruler of Doriath, I suppose he's an Elf....Only Earendil's descendants were able to choose their race, so before that children of Elves and Men were considered elfs....

[Lasgalen]

I am pretty sure that the children of Elves and Men were counted among Men until Eärendil made his voyage.

It is my belief that the Elves of Doriath accepted Dior because he was Thingol's only heir, even tho he was a Man.

[David D]

There is not enough eidence from Tolkien to truly decide on this. All Tolkien wrote was that he was part of the Peredhil. There is evidence to suggest that he was counted mortal since the Valar only granted the descendents of Earendil the choice. On the other hand there is evidence to contrary such as the proud kingdom of Doriath allowing him to be king and his marriage to an elf. Personally I think that Tolkien would in the end have counted him an elf, because it would cause too many complications between what would happen to his wife, cursed to spend her entire life time along.

[Finrod Felagund]

The Prof only said that there were 3 marriages between mortal and Elf, Beren/Luthien, Tuor/Idril, and Aragorn/Arwen. therefore , I think Dior is considered an Elf

[Lasgalen]

Yet, if he is counted an Elf, why does Elwing need to make a choice? If Dior is an Elf, and his wife is an Elf, then Elwing should be an Elf. But appartently she isn't because, after Manwë's decree, Elwing makes a choice as to which group she wishes to belong.

[Gwaihir]

I have always thought that he was a mortal. Too bad the book doesn't clearly say... But Las has a good point there about Elwing.

[Finrod Felagund]

yep, I must read more on that.
Maybe there is something in HoME about that. Although, originally, Beren was a Noldo.

[Tirithel]

Ooooooh OOOOOoooo oooo, I know this one! I know this one! Check this out:

Then Dior arose, and about his neck he clasped the Nauglamir; and now he appeared as the fairest of all the children of the world, of threefold race: of the Edain, and of the Eldar, and of the Maiar of the Blessed Realm.

That is in the Sil right after Dior finds out that Beren and Luthien have died. Poetry, for real. ight before it is said that "Beren Erchamion and Luthien Tinuviel had died indeed, and gone where go the race of men beyond the world." You guys are right; Luthien was counted in the end as a mortal, but I blieve that there is a grey area that allowed Dior to remain immortal, though his mother chose to forfiet everlasting life. The blood of Melian and Thingol, after all, was in him.

And I know i'm gonna get beaten for this, but I think there were other marriages between man and elf besides the three, although I can't think of any specifics right now. I know I've had this thought before, though...

[Lasgalen]

Originally posted by Tirithel
And I know i'm gonna get beaten for this, but I think there were other marriages between man and elf besides the three, although I can't think of any specifics right now. I know I've had this thought before, though... Since Prince Imrahil has Elf blood, there must have been an Elf/Man union. I don't know their names, tho.

[Evenstar]

He could just be a very distant relative of the Elros line.

[Lasgalen]

I have heard of the Elf/Man union that is Prince Imrahils ancestors. Just don't know names. I believe it was one of the Elf maids that went south with Nimrodel.

[Nibinaraniel]

Thanks a bunch guys. (and girls!) Appreciate it!!:elfqueen: :duh:

[Tirithel]

Appreciate what, Nib?

Las, you're right. Imrahil is probably descended from AMroth, the son of Galadriel and Celeborn. There's lots about him in UT. Dol Amroth, Amroth...you get the connection...:grin:

[Ereinion]

I've read the UT, the story of Celeborn, Galadriel and Amroth, and it seems to me as some unnesesary plot Tolkien never meant to use...
Anyway, about Elf/Men unions, sure there were some, but those unions weren't of royal people like Beren~Luthien, Idril~Tuor, and Aragorn~Arwen... If Prince Imrahil has Elven blood, it's not of Elven royalty....
About Dior, it says in the Sil that after Beren came back from the dead, he never talked to a mortal Man again...It's just grasping at strowes,obviously,but he prob. talked to his son, so just maybe Dior was an Elf....

[Undomiel]

All i can say on this was that Elwing was definitely half mortal, half elf. Because it said in the book, i think when she married Earendil, that she and he were both half elf and so when they reached Valinor they had to choose to which kindred they wished to belong. Plus if Dior was in some way elven they surely he would be part Maia as well????

[Gil Galad]

well he was of threefold race, and i belive that he was immortal, altho perhaps not pure elf. elwing still had mortal blood in her from Beren-Doir-Elwing and therefore was considered half elven (i dont the the actuall proportions of elvishness were important)

[Finrod Felagund]

Is Dior's wife ever mentioned?

[Undomiel]

yeah ermmm..hang on i'm gonna look for her......Ok here we go..."their son Dior Eluchíl had to wife Nimloth kinswoman of Celeborn, Prince of Doriath, who was wedded to the Lady Galadriel. The sons of Dior and Nimloth were Eluréd and Elurín; and a daughter also was born to them and she was named Elwing..." etc That's in Of the Ruin of Doriath. I realise it doesnt excactly solve anything but there's some extra info. :)

EDIT: Ok i just found this in the same chapter:

"Then Dior arose, and about his neck he clasped the Nauglamir; and now he appeared as the fairest of all the children of the world, of threefold race: Of the Edain, and of the Eldar and of the Maiar of the Blessed Realm."

[Ereinion]

Nimloth, Dior's wife, is a pure Elf, which also shows that he was considered an Elf, because otherwise it woud have been another royal union between Elves and Men....

[Lasgalen]

It was not a union between Elf and Man because Dior was half-Elven. He had mortal blood in his veins which means he could not have been immortal (Manwë's decree was not yet made) although he would have had longer than normal life because of the Elf blood he inherited from Luthien.

[Ereinion]

I never believed that Tolkien saw mortality/immortality being purely a biological thing.... Elrond has mortal blood too, but he's immortal... Manwe's decree couldn't have changed his biological structure (just as it couldn't have flatten Elros' ears). That's why I believe that there is no biological differens between Elves and Men, but because the motive of immortality should be stronger, every half-Elven is automatically immortal, because it's easier to turn mortal then the other way around...

[Undomiel]

I dont think that's necessarily true. It seemed more that there was no specific definition of what should be. Mortal or Immotortal Dior would have spent time in the Halls of Mandos and maybe he wasnt released until after the decree and was given the choice?? Just a suggestion?

[Lasgalen]

Actually, every half-Elven is mortal. Eru's Gift to Men outweighs the Elves immortality.

[Undomiel]

Can i just say something?.................this is SO confusing!!!!!! lol

[Ereinion]

Just one of those "open to discussion" things that Tolkien didn't explain, or when his explanation is unsatisfactory.... :grin:

[Undomiel]

Very true. I think (although the main question of the thread is answered) the other questions that arise could go on and on and on.....

[Ereinion]

Just like in the real life....That's what makes his universe so credible...

[Undomiel]

True. It also makes it a lot more interesting because there is always something more to discuss.

[Nimloth]

Seems to me that there is a lot beneath the descent/mortality theme than Tolkien ever set out.

His mixed race characters were given choices or decrees that helped make their race more certain and definate. Elros and Elrond chose. Notable, Elron'd offspring were Elven. He took an Elven wife and Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen were all Elven. Arwen's choice of mortality follows in the footsteps of Luthien's. Seems Elves can choose mortality when they give their hearts to mortals. Mortals can't choose immortality...

Based on that, seems Eru's Gift of Mortality outweighs the Elven immortality. But as I have alluded to before and as has been mentioned by others, Dior is not simply half Elven and half Edain. He is one third Maia.

Therein lies, to my way of thinking, the cincher. Dior is a complicated creature as he is of three kindreds. Perhaps his immortality and right to rule came from his Maiar heritage. That, added to his Elven blood, would create a right to rule based on his lineage and his heritage.

Here's another fly in the ointment. Perhaps the Elves of Doriath chose Dior as their ruler not because he was Elven or immortal, but because he was the grandson of their King and Queen and the only accessible surviving heir of Thingol. Luthien had taken herself out of the picture by abiding with Beren with the Green Elves. For the disinherited survivors of Doriath, Dior was the only remnant of a royal, legitimate heir left to them and the Elves seem to need a royal leader from all that is to be had of their historical accounts.

[Tirithel]

Well put, Nim! And welcome to WotR!

[Nimloth]

Why, thank you very much for the welcome and for overlooking the typing errors too (a hazard of speed posting on the run).

:blush:

[Gil Galad]

about Manwes decreee not beingg made at the time of Doir's death.... i dont think this is the case, i beleive that it wos (by Illuvator) just not made known to anyone before teh voyage Earendil. excelent points Nim.


oph Erenion i dont think u can say that the decree cudnt change ur biological structure, it came from the top, from Eru the breather of life, i think he can do anything

[Nimloth]

Interesting point.

The "Will of Eru" I think is your basis? Correct me please if I've gotten that wrong.

The "Will of Eru" or Illuvator, whatever you prefer, is such that only his will is done in Arda. I always wondered if it was only his will, except when Melkor and co confounded it and hence evil was anything that defied Eru's will.... or was Melkor all part of his Will?

However, that's an aside.

The way I've always conceptualised your point, Gil-Galad is as follows"

Eru's Will is made known to the Valar. In this case, Mandos was made aware of Eru's Will and hence made it known within Arda via his decree. Were he Melkor, then Eru's Will wouldn't matter and he would decree whatever he liked. Same could be said of all Ainur, Vala and Maia alike.

I believed that it was Manwe that most often knew Eru's mind and Will, followed closely by Mandos.

So, I saw Mandos as functioning as the conduit for Eru's Will through his decree. I also think that it is a given that the Valar functions according to Eru's Will. There have been two notable exceptions: Melkor and Aule's making of the Dwarves.

The issue is how they implement Eru's Will. They are capable of independent thought, as shown by Melkor and Aule. Do they interpret Eru's Will? If so, is their interpretation always right?

[Tirithel]

Though I like to keep my Tolkien seperate from my religion (or lack there-of ;) ), let's compare Eru to the Christian God for a minute (as many have done and still do) and say that Eru "wrote the entire history of the world down" before it all happened.

Essentially that Eru knew everything before it happened, wanted it to happen that way, and so everything that does happen is his will.

What thinkest thou of that? :grin:

[Lasgalen]

I think that would make a most excellent topic for a new thread!! I could go on and on about this kind of stuff. If Eru had everything planned, then Melkor wasn't really evil. He was just doing what Eru told him to do. Same with Fëanor and the kinslaying.

[Tirithel]

Oh boy now I've gone and done it...:rolleyes:

lol

[Gil Galad]

well i dont think that it was "Erus Will" exactly, but that in the end everything, no matter how bad it seems at the time, returns good to Eru and is in his control, no matter how much of a roundabout way it takes

and i dont hink he had it written down, he doesnt know it b4 it happens but as he is(just suppose he is) omnipresent(everywhere at once) he is everywhere in both space and time, so although tomorrow is the future to us, he is already there now (if u follow)

oh Tiri, why refer to Him/Her/Everthing(i couldnt think of a proper lil word for GOD) as teh Christian GOD, as i understand it the Christian GOOD is the same as the Islamic GOD or the Hebrew GOD

[Tirithel]

Because I'd hate to generalize or make a really broad incorrect and assuming statement. What if other people's Gods are different? I don't know...ya know? My knowledge of religion is fairly limited to the western ones...just being extra anal so as to not torque anyone off. :rolleyes: lol

Anyways, back on topic...I don't think that Eru "wrote it down" per se, but everything that would ever happen was unfolded in the two themes, right? And didn't Eru know what was going on in the third theme already, even though he had yet to reveal it....???

[Gil Galad]

yeh, but i dont think its a fact that he controlled it per se or that he knew it b4 it happened it just that he was there b4 we were and so knew. but back to the actual point i think Doir was inherently immortal, due to his Maia and Elvish blood, oh some thing i read in the lost tales book one, about when some of the valar wanted to slay melko, but Manwe wudnt have them try cos teh time wasnt yet ready for any of the Ainur to die, so i think cos he had so much of the Maia blood in him he wud b made immortal

[Lasgalen]

If Dior were immortal, then, since he married an Elf, Elwing should be immortal. But she could not have been immortal (and therefore neither was Dior) because Manwë would not have needed to ask her which race she wished to belong to if she was already immortal.

[Nimloth]

Hmmmm....

Interesting point, Lasgalen.

I think Elwing was given her choice because of Earendil's heritage more than her own. If you take a look at Earendil's family tree, there's strong Mortal presence. In fact, the only Elven blood in his heritage is that of his mother, Idril.

So, when Earendil found the shores of the Undying Lands, and Elwing accompanied him, she was given the choice to accompany him into his mortal fate rather than be sundered from him. That would suggest an Elven heritage for Elwing.


Oh, Gil-galad, I think Manwe's forebearance in slaying Melkor when it was first suggested was more about the Will of Eru.

Recall that many thousands of years later, Gandalf and Frodo showed the same forebearance to Gollum for the same reason. It was not Gollum's time to die and Gollum had yet some part to play.

Perhaps I've misread what you said, but that seems to be quite distinct from the immortal/mortality question.

Melkor was immortal because he is not merely Maiar but Valar. In fact, Melkor was the most powerful Valar and brother to Manwe (from recollection).

[Lasgalen]

Elwing did not accompany Eärendil "into his mortal fate". Eärendil asked Elwing which she would choose (she picked Elf) and then he chose the same one.

[Gil Galad]

but she was given the choice allong with him because she had risked all to journeyed to the undying lands, which were banned to her, with him. and so the Valar seen that she would not be seperated from him in that journey, and therfore it wud not be fair to seperate them in death either.


i see what you mean Nimloth, it wos just a thought