Tolkien's influences and ...Radicalism?

[Periantari Andruil]

i was also reading in Jack Zipes' book "Breaking the Spell" on how Tolkien used fairy tales and fantasy ito convey his ideas to hint at a utopian world... in other words, how he used his religion to convey his ideas and he kind of "cleansed" the way how fairy tales worked was quite revolutionary... in Zipes book, he considers Tolkien to be a radical because fairy tales from the past to now have very different themes... Fairy tales from the past were more violent and implicit of a lot of adult issues...

Also, Zipes said that
"Tolkien saw himself as a defender of the 'masses' surrounded on all sides by corruption and forces of progress that prevented them from seeking salvation in true religion. Strangely enough, his religion and conservatism provided the radical cutting edge of his romantic anti-captialist position which still stamps his works today and constitues part of their appeal."

In other words, Zipes felt that Tolkien reached back into the past to convey his ideas to project utopian visions of better worlds.

It has been said also, that Tolkien's works "appear to be a romantic regression into a legendeary past, an escape from brutaliteis of modern-day conditions." (Zipes, pg149) In other words, Tolkien sought to use a "purer" past to convey his ideas of what should be an ideal world...

Tolkien himself, lectured and defended fairy tales in his lectures..
Tolkien's religious use of a fairy tale is also very different from before, so that is why Tolkien can be considered "radical" in his way of manipulating fairy tale aspects to craft a story that has so many religious undertones.

Basically Zipes' article tries to convey the idea that Tolkien used the medium of fantasy to portray a world that he believed to be ideal. Obviously many times Tolkien has meant for his story to not be allegorical in any manner, but Zipes being a professor of German and author of books about fairy tales examines how Tolkien did do this, perhaps unknowingly and therefore using fairy tales in a way that it had never been used before.

[Rumil]

Hmmm ... quite a paradox that one. Tolkien's work is essentially conservative in nature in terms of its social constructions. He seems to project a vision of a society which has a place for everyone and everyone in his/her place. He operates clearly defined social hierarchies; which are even predetermined social hierarchies (part of me longs for one of the hobbits to tell Aragorn .. 'listen mate; having a broken sword and shacking up with some elven broad who's made you a flag is no basis for a system of governent. Now why don't you use your absolute monarchy to create a democratic republic and redistribute power away from a small number of ruling classes determined by birth to reflect the views of all elements of society?') Radicals are the direct opposite of conservatives politically speaking; pushing for fundamental social changes and the replacement of old orders. This does not seem to be Tolkien's world view.

I take the point about re interpreting the genre to carry a different message. The fairy tale often deals with themes of sexual repression and sexuality (almost absent from Tolkien except to the extent that desire is almost overwhelmingly a destructive force). However, this is not such a new idea, christian lyricists of the 13th century were prone to doing exactly the same thing. They would use the conventions and forms of romance, fairy tale and ballad to convey a christian message. Thus the traditional 'reverdie' or spring love ballads, which were often expressions of heroic/courtly love derived from chivalrous romance, have been used as expressions of religious ecstasy over contemplation of the virgin Mary. Infact if you think of the modern christian festivals of christmas and easter (Eostre being a saxon goddess) they are clearly christian appropriations of older pagan forms (there ain't much mistletoe or holly in the new testament after all). From the outset christianity has borrowed pagan forms, stories, messages and festivals adapting them to its own message in order to give them appeal. It still does so today. The principle is exactly the same as contemporary christian rock which appropriates secular forms but changes the 'content' of the message. Nifty yes, but i am not entirely sure that it amounts to radicalism - i am not sure that any device which is at least 1800 years old can accurately be described as 'radical'. Paricularly given that it is a fundamental part of how christianity in the west has always worked. I think Zipes should possibly re-think his terminology. Though the idea of a radical conservative is a pleasant oxymoron i suspect it carries little water.

[Periantari Andruil]

I understand your points, Rumil and they are well taken...and maybe I was a little unclear and the title of the thread is misleading :blush:
I didn't mean to say radical in terms of message-wise radical... Tolkien couldn't be more conservative than he was, but through his use a certain genre to carry a different message...
I am studying how the folktale has evolved and has had importance throughout the history of mankind. Perhaps "radical" was too extreme a word to use, so therefore probably "different" and "revolutionary" could be better words to use....

But Zipes mentioned this:
"... his religion and conservatism provided the radical cutting edge of his romantic anti-capitalist position which still stamps his works today and consitutes part of their appeal."

Perhaps it is his use of his beliefs in crafting his story that is called "radical"
i'm not saying that i totally agree with Zipes nor disagree with him, but i find this article interesting to mention because Zipes mentioned him to be kind of like Ernst Bloch who was a Marxist philosopher...
Strange to mention them in the same article? i think so too... but the title of the article is called "The Utopian Function of Fairy Tales and Fantasy" and really discusses how they used the medium of the fairy tale to indirectly (or directly) state their ideas to the public.

[Lady Luthien]

That was a very interesting article...and I agree with Periantari...I dont think the author was saying Tolkien WAS indeed a radical...I just think he was saying that how Tolkien used fairy tale-like stories to convey his themes was a radical action in the name of traditional fairy tales, and how they were once used. I think perhaps another thing that could be considered a "radical" action of Tolkien would be his ancient dialect. Most 21st century authors write in modern dialect, but Tolkien's setting and language were purely medieval, and this is a stye in which the majority of the authors in his time did not write. Again, I don't think Tolkien was a radical, but some of his actions and his style and setting, and the ways in which he chose to convey his messages were unique, and untraditional, which to me is a good thing in literature.

[Frodo's Love]

Perhaps Tolkien's medieval style of writing is exactly the point why LOTR sounds so real in some ways? Authentic? I always wondered how Tolkien managed to make the happenings in Middle-earth sound like real history, and one reason might be his unique and ancient writing style?
At least I never felt a fantasy world written so realistically and believable.
I first read LOTR in my native language (German). A little bit later, when I trusted in my knowledge of English enough ;), I bought the English books. And I was really blown away by the language Tolkien used. It's so unique -and one could indeed say "radical" ;) - and this "Tolkienish" style got lost a bit in the German translation. I won't say that the German translation is bad, but it cannot reach the atmosphere Tolkien created with his very own use of language.

[Lady Luthien]

I think another thing that makes Tolkien's fantasy so realistic is the amount of background information he provides...the history of the lands and the races trace back to the creation of Middle Earth, and there are maps, and languages and legends about every race and city in ME. All of this information and detail makes it seem like it really happened.

[MithrandirTheWhite]

i think that when people compare the works of Tolkein to modern day events it takes away from the real perspective that he wrote it from. That being the true genius of Tolkein, all his works came from his own imagination, so many books today are written as euphemisms.