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sauron_the_faithful
September 21st,2003, 03:56 AM
Many of the fair people of this board have spoken ill of Sauron, that it was his indomitable lust for power and control of Middle earth that caused the multitude of woes that befell that resplendent land. Obviously this is not without merit, for this Tale paints a grim portrait of Gorthaur as a Deceiver, a Corruptor, a rancorous and malevolent Maia left over from the Old World, from an even older time.

That he deceived and beguiled, yea, is true. That he wanted to unite Middle earth under one glorious banner, yea, is also true. Most certainly his methods are questionable, but herein lies the rub: to what extent did Gorthaur exercise free will in the events that shaped that land, and to what extent was he truly a dupe of Morgoth, and a pawn in the elaborate Doom of Mandos? To what extent did Feanor damn all Middle earth with the Kinslaying of Alqualonde, Making Gorthaur but a tool to fulfill the designs of the Valar?

It was decreed by Mandos himself who stood tall, dark and menacing on a precipice high above. It was Mandos who pronounced the legacy that would rule the fates of many, that "to evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass. The Dispossessed shall they be for ever..."

Was not Celebrimbor Noldor? And were not the Rings of Power his craftmanship? Was not Gil-galad and Galadriel bearers of the Three? Was it not their own pride and lust for power with these Rings their own making, and not Gorthaur's? Yea, they were deceived by the One, but were they not guilty of ambition, vanity and a ravenous appetite for mastery? And is that not only a further fulfillment of Mandos' prophecy-- the Will of the Valar-- that they be so deceived?

Yea, tis true that Gorthaur is responsible for much of the woe and wretchedness in Middle earth. But his fate was ruled long ago when Melkor, mightiest of the Valar, polluted the spirit of this once gentle Maia.

But Feanor made his own choice to slay his own kin at Alqualonde, to murder them with bright Noldorine swords, to throw their bodies into the water and turn the sea red with the blood of his brothers. Feanor made his own choice to burn the white ships of the Teleri and abandon Fingolfin, his own brother, and his people to suffer the icy hellish waste of the Helcaraxe.

How many died because of Feanor? How many lives were shattered, kingdoms crumbled, innocence lost, because of him and the Doom of the Noldor that he called upon them? The evil he wrought among his own people makes Gorthaur look paltry by comparison.

Nay, blame not Sauron for all the griefs of this age, for the anguish and affliction of the Third Age is but the final fallout of Feanor and the Fate of the Noldor. This also explains why Galadriel could "remain Galadriel" and return to the West. In her rejection of the One she also rejected her own Ring, and in doing this she passes a "test" if you will, and can now leave behind that which was begun by Noldor hands and had turned to evil. She will sail to Valinor and receive a blessing and absolution for which she long has looked.

Nay, blame not Sauron for the griefs of this age, for Feanor's burning pride blazed hotter than any evil, any deception, any artifice, that Sauron could ever conceive.

In Faith I Depart,
Sauron

Catz
September 21st,2003, 04:54 AM
ok........well since youre discussing characters from the Sil i think this would be better placed in the Library, in the Silmarillion forum.......which is where im taking it now ;)
welcome to WotR btw sauron_the_faithful
:catz:

Periantari Andruil
September 28th,2003, 06:37 AM
Great thread, sauron! =)

I agree with lots of your points..and it is true that the Noldorian Elves brought doom upon them when they slayed their kin at the Kin-slaying and that the Elves had a lot to do with their own downfall for disobeying Manwe.. but Sauron and Morgoth are altogether evil too and they wrecked more havoc than necessary in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd ages of Middle-earth.
Yes Feanor was in charge of lots of misfortune of Middle-Earth, but I do not think it's fair to play the Blame Game and blame everything on Feanor... it's just an accumulation of a lot of poor judgement... on the part of Feanor for disobeying the Valar, on the Valar for not taking action upon Morgoth, the elves for being deceived by Sauron in the 2nd age... the Men for trusting Sauron in the 2nd Age which led to the great flooding of Numenor... blame goes around all over...
but the choices made by the Valar to send wizards over to ME in the 3rd age was a wise move for Gandalf, (being one of the most powerful beings mentioned in Tolkien's world) led all peoples to the destructoin of Sauron at the end of the 3rd Age...

Yes, Sauron wasn't the only to blame upon bad deeds in ME, but he attributed a lot in the 2nd and 3rd ages... and of course we can lay blame on Feanor and the certain elves of the Noldor as well... but when they wanted to get back the Silmarils, it was because Morgoth had stolen them in the first place...

Gil Galad
October 13th,2003, 12:23 PM
i c wot u mean about it not being completly Saurons fault, but it wos he who set teh trap for Celebrimmor, it wos he who invaded that realm and later the whole of the northwest of middle earth, and he was a mere pawn of morgoth, but he chose to be that pawn, he wos not a curupted lowly orc who had no choice but to rampage(due to the tortures of his soul)under the comand of the dark lord. Feanor is to blame for alot of the woes of the Eldar race but he cannot be blamed for saurons actions. followin ur train of thought its all Illuvators fault since he made them and gave tehm free will, and u cannot do that.

Friend of Maglor
October 23rd,2003, 01:52 AM
**cracks knuckles**

ah, so you are debating about my sworn kin?
well I would like to take Gil Galad's statement as my standpoint, you can't blame participants in Sauron's evil for the evil itself. morgoth was the root, Sauron a split off of his, and the elves were the earth above, split by its entangling creepers.

Fëanor (Fëanor, ah Fëanor...) is the most notable of the elves who participated in evil doing. The most OBVIOUS..........the same elf would have never commited the sins of Eol.........same with his son Curufin= though he would kill for the Sillmarils, he lets Eol, an elf he loaths and is hungering to slay, go unscathed. He does not kill becaase it would be out of context with his characteFor Sauron, once he has fallen, any form of evil is NEVER out of context in the least, elves show mercy, I don't envision any of the Teleri asking for it do you? Sauron mocked it.

also, you are giving elves, though very poweful and awe inspiring in thier right, too much power. in the cases of overcome elves, though of thier own fault they might have had weak spirits, they still had no way of stopping Morgoth's spirit from perverting thiers. did orcs want to be orcs? I think not.

He was the inspirer, the elves the victims. it is like trying to take the blame off of an illegal firearms dealer by blaming the customer he persuaded to purchase wares. You can't legitimately pull it off.

(dang, that was a heck of a post for someone who has been gone for five months....:rolleyes: )

Evenstar
November 4th,2003, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by sauron_the_faithful

Nay, blame not Sauron for the griefs of this age, for Feanor's burning pride blazed hotter than any evil, any deception, any artifice, that Sauron could ever conceive.


I agree with FoM. Fëanor may have done evil things, but they were nowhere near as evil as Sauron's, and Fëanor was acting through an oath he rashly made and probably regretted afterwards - remember Melkor had just killed his last remaining parent and stolen his life's work. Fëanor died bravely, but once he was overthrown he stayed overthrown, he didn't come back four or so other times to persecute the people of ME. And he only killed the Teleri out of desperation - he had asked them first if he coul use their boats and was refused. Sauron's every move was designed to persecute and destroy. But I agree that he shouldn't be blamed for all the problems of ME, cos he didn't turn up for quite a while. I think we should blame Melkor. Definately not Fëanor.
:)

Mirkgirl
November 4th,2003, 07:26 PM
The road to hell is covered with good intentions, you know...
The evil persues the evil and sees no other point of view but its own ('least in fantasy books) and it often misses because of this (if Sauron thought that Gandalf & co will try to destroy the ring he'd just concentrate his stregths and smash them and take the ring. But, no he thought there's time)... the same scheme with reversed sign is appliable to the generally good guys... They think they do good, but they often overlook the side effects... esp when they go maniac over something in relation with opposing a dark power... "I'm a Silmarili maniac, but I despise and fight against the dark lord so I should be good, right?" you have to admit this makes some sense.

Friend of Maglor
November 4th,2003, 09:15 PM
I agree Mirky, in that one respect, I would never call Fëanor a ner of good intentions, he himself would not say he was. Yet Tolkien's entire point in instituting his hatred of Melkor is that THAT hatred came FIRST......that is his primal instinct, hatred of evil, so even though his actions are inecusable, we classify him as a protagonist..........

basically, the warped demonic insanity we get out of Fëanor later is a pervesion FROM Melkor...... he was open to it yes, but it was in no way native to his fëa, essentially by the very natural order of his kind