Unfinished Tales

[Ludibunda]

I'm from the old book discussion group on Unfinished Tales. I'm making very slow progress but would love to have a reading partner who would discuss it on a VERY COLLOQUIAL, only slightly intellectual, non-threatening level.'
I'm up to Book II: Section 2 - Aldarion & Erendis (The Mariner's Wife)
Any takers?

[Ludibunda]

I can see why Alsarion and Erendis' tale is rarely named as a favorite - it's quite unhappy. Two such unlikely folk paired because of fairness and status, I don't quite get the attraction. Also it visits tha age old problem of obligation vs. adventure. If ones desires don't match parental expectations, what are the options? How does a parent treat what they observe as an erring child? And does birthright to status carry responsibility which cannot be ignored? It brings to mind a few words in Ever After when a complaining prince is reminded that his positiion brings him the opportunity to leave things better than he found them. Aldarion does try to improve the forests (even for his future use) and forge relationship with people of other lands. But does his responsibility lay at home? Could he ever MAKE himself love the land rather than the sea? And isn't 200 years enough time for Tar-Elendil to create another heir for that purpose or adopt one? Well, I do have 20 more pages, maybe the "tide wil turn." (or the bough with bend)

[Undomiel]

I think the tale of Erendis and Aldarion is sad too. It's hard to take sides as well. When i started it i only felt sorry for Erendis, but as you carry on, you realise that Aldarion was trying to help Gil-galad, etc. and so he had obligations in Middle-earth also. I feel sorry that Ancalime had to suffer her mothers hatred of her father as it was bound to influence her badly.

[Ludibunda]

Yes, too sad - but altogether real. Many spouses (not only men) are married to a hobby or a career and are not truly fit for the married life. The children are exposed to the unhappiness or hatred and must decide what to feel as they get older.

Now....the History of Celeborn and Galadriel. Also not as happy as I'd imagined. This is written as more of a commentary than a story however. I found myself looking for a clear map and maybe a timeline. Clearly, I need to get my hands on The Sil.

[Undomiel]

The Sil is really good-definitely read it because it's more finished (lol) However i would say that the history of Celeborn and Galdriel isnt extensively covered in The Sil and so the most detailed ideas are in Unfinished Tales as far as i know. I know what you mean though. It has various ideas that Tolkien hadnt finally resolved on (such as who Celeborn actually was) that it's kinda confusing. The basic story is there but C. Tolkien adds notes that there are different versions of some parts which just change the story in some way (though it's usually not major i think) I thought that was quite interesting coz, as i said, their relationship isnt really told much at all in The Sil.

[Ludibunda]

Yep - after reading about Aldarion it was interesting to find that Galadriel also had a longing for different parts of Middle Earth and to be close to the sea. It also talks a lot about her longing for power and rule over a land - a temptation that she had to resist. And THAT we do get to see in LotR. The background from Unfinished Tales makes her celebration in triumphing against evil a more meaningful accomplishment.

[Undomiel]

Yeah i agree with that. I thought it was a bit congusing though in UT. I mean was Tolkien trying to say that Galadriel was banished from Middle Earth until she redeemed herself by resisting the ring. I get the impression Tolkien hadnt finally decided on it and so different ideas are all put across, some different from others.

[Ludibunda]

right, UT gives several possibilities and then moves on to another topic. But I am glad to have the information as it puts a little more meat on the characters' bones.

[Undomiel]

It does indeed. The Sil is quite vague about Galadriel and Celeborn and LOTR doesnt really give them any true history (except some notes in the appendices). I thought the Tale of G and C was really good just coz it gave more insight into what they were like and it also gave info on how they ended up in Lórien and i especially liked how it told about the making of the Green Stone that Aragorn eventually wears in LOTR :)

[Ludibunda]

JUST read about the Green Stone! THAT'S the kind of info I like to learn about in UT. Also this info about the different elves and how much contact each sect had with the dwarves is interesting.

[Undomiel]

Yeah-it gives more background to the relationship between the elves and the dwarves. Which is something that was slighlty puzzling to me in LOTR. The Sindar never got on with the Dwarves as well as the Noldor it seems. The Noldor were different in that they made things out of stone more often and created jewels and coveted precious materials more, so they were more alike to the dwarves in those respects.

[Gwaihir]

Yeah, just reading LotR didn't explain why they are so hostile. I didn't get it at first. I'm glad it was explained in the Unfinished Tales and such.
The reason why they are hostile is first of all because Aule did not tell Yavanna when he made the dwarves. For that reason Yavanna made it so the Elves and Dwarves would like different things and not get along together. The Noldor was more like the dwarves than the Sindar, so naturally the dwarves preferred them.

[Ludibunda]

I also appreciated the history of Fangorn and Lorien - how the Ents and Elves generally stayed seperate though there was a welcome passage "clause" in their agreement.
I also just read how Ilsidur lost the One Ring in the water but came OUT of the water before being killed with arrow fire. Just a tiny difference from the movie - it's fun to compare the original source. Actually, I'm quite amazed at how closely Peter Jackson stuck to the text in his visual version.

[Undomiel]

Yeah i think in the Prologue PJ has stuck pretty good to the details Tolkien gives. I just find that the Unfinished Tales add alot more depth to both LOTR and The Silmarillion. I especially thought that in the case of Tuor. I really liked the Tale of Tuor coming to Gondolin. I was really disappointed that it ended (though i should have expected it given the title of the book lol)

[Ludibunda]

Well, all of this is a figment of somebody's imagination - so you can create a fit ending to your liking.
I read that the Sil was referred to in LotR some 600+ times, so I wanted to brave it despite some reporting it difficult. At that time I had already started UT and although my motivation to finish is to get on to the Sil, I can see already that it will make both true tales more rich.

[Ludibunda]

As I read through the UT I'm getting frustrated by the absence of maps with the mentioned cities, like Pelargir. The maps in the front and backs of the Trilogy/Sil/UT have not been adequate although I realize I haven't done an exhaustive search. There is, I think, a book just of maps and I should do a little more research before complaining much. I'm most hopeful that The Guide James is compiling for WotR will help in this area - maybe even color-coded!!! (Blue dots for places referred to in UT, green for Sil, black for all, etc) Watcha 'think?

[Undomiel]

That's one thing about tolkien that i can never get my head round. I'm terrible at telling how places relate to eachother. The way i imagine it is always different from the map.

[Ludibunda]

I finally went to Barnes and Noble to check out the map books on Tolkien. Fonstad's Atlas of Middle Earth seems pretty good with full circular map drawings down to regionally specific ones. They are also grouped by book and battle, with lines drawn of the action described in the journeys and wars. Hmmm - pretty darn impressive!

[Lady Ashley]

Geez, UT sounds so exciting. But I always got cofused when trying to look at UT and LT etc, because aren't there several different versions of the left out stuff in those books?

[Ludibunda]

I don't know if i'd say UT is exciting. Maybe intriguing or enriching wound be better descriptors. Yes, the serveral versions serve to remind me that all these details of mythology are the creations of the imagination of one man's mind. None are the RIGHT version and many morecould be conceived. It is folly - a safe activity to play with in one's free time. Certainly nothing to lose a friendship over in an arguement.

[Undomiel]

I think the stories n UT are very intriguing and some are quite exciting. The story of Turambar goes into alot more depth it hink than in The Sil and that's a pretty exciting story really :)

[Ludibunda]

I cannot agree with you more about Turambar being exciting. It brought back the feeling of reading LotR for the first time - humans, dwarves, dragons, etc. It was like finding a "lost" tale. Have you read Lost Tales? What sort of feeling do they convey? Compared to The Sil?

[Eomund]

I think i have read it but do not remember. Sorry,


aaaah, right, i read the first part i think again. It was quite better than Sil i think.

[Gwaihir]

The story of Turin Turambar was really more detailed than the one in the Sil, and therefore was a lot more fun to read! :) There are some other stories that are not in the Sil (Aldarion & Erendis for example), and chapters like Istari, Palantiri, and Druedain that gives us much information. Unfinished Tales is a great book!

[Lady Galadriel]

Its very good. I just finished reading it. It clears up a lot of unanswered questions for me as well as it expounded on details in the Silmarillion. I could not believe I overlooked that Gandalf is Olorin, the Maiar. I could be so blind at times. I also like that it told of Isildur's end and so on. The disaster of the Gladden Field and so on. I am now embarking on the world of Lost Tales Book 1.

I really have great love for the Silmarillion. I can read it numerous times. roflmao

[Lady Ashley]

I'VE GOT IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I started to read it at Barnes and Noble, and wanted it soooo badly, and I HAVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!

Aldarion and Erendis...sad, sad sad. But I like how that's where they got the tradition of the Elendilmir. (And it's nice to know Aragorn found it at Orthanc.)

The Description of Numenor is too short. *sniff*

The Gladdden Fields, Cirion and Eorl, and the Fords of Isen are really awsome. They give you an insight of details in Rohan and Gondor military stuff. Too cool.

Galadriel and Celeborn....geez, LOTS of versions. But the Elfstone part is cool.

I haven't gotten to anything else yet...am looking forward to the Druedain, the Hunt for the Ring and everything else. I haven't brought myself to read about Turin. I never really enjoyed that part of The Sil. The most tragic of everything. Turin and Nienor never got a break.

This book IS TOO COOL!!!

[Gwaihir]

So you are finally reading it, Ash? That's good! Have fun with it! ;) I haven't finished it, either... Haven't read most of the last half of it as I have so many other stuff to read (like book report)!

[Lady Ashley]

Aww. I'm sorry. Maybe you could do a LOTR book for a book report? lol

UT is great...I just don't think I could get into LT 1 and 2, or any of the HIGHLY editorial books. They could confuse poor me. I did glance at "The Shadow Returns" and "The Treason of Isenguard". Very very strange, though some of the lines help make sense of the final version. However, I LOVE LOVE LOVE the "Epilogue", version 1 with Sam talking to all his children. Curse the people who didn't want it in there. The Professor should have left it in.)

(Though, I don't think I'd ever want Frodo to be Bingo son of Bilbo. *shivers*, though in my play I wrote, I changed Frodo's name back to Bingo *grin* homage to the original. But Aragorn used to be a hobbit named Trotter. That's scary.)

[Mirkgirl]

I think those stuff should be left where they belong - in the wastebasket of the author... but Chris Tolkien has lots of green reasons of the contrary

Anyway UT is great, glad you finally got to read it Ash (:

[Lady Galadriel]

UT is great...I just don't think I could get into LT 1 and 2, or any of the HIGHLY editorial books. They could confuse poor me. I did glance at "The Shadow Returns" and "The Treason of Isenguard".

I agree Mirkgirl.

Lady Ashley, over the weekend I was in Barnes & Noble and decided to take a look at the Treason of Isenguard. After reading through for half an hour, I promptly placed it back on the shelf. Too much information. :)

I love Unfinished Tales though.

[Lady Ashley]

It's too cool...I love Tour and His Coming to Gondolin. But alas that it cuts off!

[Lady Galadriel]

Yeah. I wish there was more too. I really like Turin and Tuor.

[Augaithil]

I think Unfinished Tales is a very good read, better than Sil in a way as it goes into more detail and is more like a story than a history. Also slightly less confusing as although it obviously does go backwards and forwards in time, it seems slightly easier to keep track of! Unless that's just because with more reading thimngs start sinking into my little brain at last!

[Mirkgirl]

Well maybe that's because UT tells you more about things you already know... while the silm tells of one whole new age, about which in lotr is only vaguely hinted... I too enjoyed UT more than the silm, but then again if it's read before the silm it'll be like reading in chinese.

[Augaithil]

Originally posted by Mirkgirl
Well maybe that's because UT tells you more about things you already know... while the silm tells of one whole new age, about which in lotr is only vaguely hinted...

That's what I was tryint to get at!:blush:

[Mirkgirl]

I know... I was just trying to say that I agree in more words lol

[Ludibunda]

well, I AM reading UT before the Sil because it seemed sless dauting. It's scattered, but I think my brain can hold on to the details until I get to "the real thing"

[Laurelin]

The Sil is very good, but it takes a bit of stamina to get started and engrossed in the book. Everything else seems like easy reading comparatively. lol

[Periantari Andruil]

I actually jumped around in UT... i never read the Second Age story :blush: i read most of the Third Age and for some reason, lingered upon the story of Turin for a loong time before finishing it... i really liked Galadriel's & Celeborn's (Teleporno! lol ) story and really really liked all the accounts in the Third Age =) ( ::feels like rereading the story of Isildur:: ) =) (though i should read the Second Age stories too) hehe :p

[Mithrandir]

I think this is book is kind of 'part' of the Silmarillion right?

[Gwaihir]

The Unfinished Tales is a collection of many earlier or unreleased versions of the stories of Middle-Earth. Yes, it contains stories from the Silmarillion, and also from LotR. The stories are told briefly in the Sil, but in the Unfinished Tales, they are rich in details (and at times a little different).

Some of the stories you will find are Narn I Hin Hurin (the tale of the children of Hurin), Aldarion and Erendis, Of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin, the History of Galadriel and Celeborn, Cirion and Eorl, The Druedain, and many others.

This book is a must-read for all true Tolkien fans.

[ImDaMom]

It is one that I pick up repeatedly- I really recommend UT for anyone who wants more background on LOTR, but can't deal with the Sil....it also makes the Sil easier to read, because it gives you a basic knowledge of some of the stories. And, it's like any legend, in that the story changes frequently, with new info or insight added as the tale grows.

[Miriel Baggins]

Well, I'm reading UT right now. I'm on the part 'Of Galadriel and Celeborn' or whatever. I'm finding it very interesting, but I have to keep another, more cheerful, book nearby. I mean, history is a rather depressing thing, full of tragedies, and that's what Tolkien was trying to create --- a history. The whole story about Aldarion and Erendis . . . . That was awful. They shouldn't have gotten married. How did they even fall in love? Oh well.

Anyways, it's nice to see that other people are plowing their way through it as well as me. :)

[Periantari Andruil]

I plowed through it in a haphazard fashion...going out of order and I remember reading the 3rd Age stories first :p
i finally came to Aldarion and Erendis last week and I will just say that I wished Tolkien would've elaborated more..

[SPOILERS AHEAD FOR THOSE WHO HAVEN'T READ]
i thought i heard rumors of Erendis doing something drastic to Aldarion and really looked forward to that happening but alas, she just bore her bitterness and made Ancalime a "man-hater" lol (well kinda... as you can see her reluctance to be binded to a man) hehe... I wish he wrote more about Erendis and what she should've done with this lack of attnetion to her..i mean Aldarion is a real jerk for leaving her so much...i really don't buy the fact that the sea has so much of his lovve that he deserts FAMILY. :rolleyes: :nono: ... just dont' really like Aldarion for seemingly taking advantage of Erendis for having a child with him so that the line of kings/queens could go on...

I find it interesting to expand upon this story through fanfiction ways... any takers? :p

[SPOILERS DONE]

My favorite story is the one about the Hunt for the Ring... really interesting to know exactly how the Ring-wraiths sought for the Shire.

I thought the essay about the Istari was kind of repetitive.. it wasn't really anything spectacular or something I didn't know from reading the appendices...and the body of LotR itself. So kinda disappointed about that...

UT was good... really wished Tolkien had time to finish all his stories though! especially elaborate upon the 2nd Age so i can appreciate it more :p hehe =)

[Mithril]

I'm thinking of buying that one, I've read the Sil, and really enjoyed it, and I'll be re-reading as I do with LOTR. So I think I'll be buying Unfinished Tales now!