Social Divisions in ME

[Algamesh]

It is very evident from Tolkien's writings that Social Class was a reality in his day. For instance, it is easy to see that Samwise was subservient to Frodo in almost every way (although the friendship and love that exists between the two is probably a bit far-fetched).

What are other Social Divisions that occur in LOTR? I've often wondered if the folks from Gondor considered the Rohirrim as a "lesser" people, being both "untutored and rustic". As a matter of fact, wasn't it Faramir who said something about his line becoming something other than a "High Race" or did I dream this? hehe.

[Dernhelm]

Originally posted by Algamesh
... it is easy to see that Samwise was subservient to Frodo in almost every way (although the friendship and love that exists between the two is probably a bit far-fetched).



Why do you think the friendship and love that Tolkien portrayed between Frodo and Sam was a little on the far-fectched side? The way I see it, Sam was not a slave to Frodo, he was his employee. He was a skilled, highly competent gardener and manservant. They were on very friendly terms with each other long before the adventrue began. Sam had a long time to observe and interact with Frodo and apparently, Frodo was simply an extremely kind, smart, & moral hobbit. I think that Sam also had those exact same qualities.

As an aside, I think that aspect of the movie is very much lacking in that it really isn't clear that Sam is the servant of Frodo. Even more lost is the point that he was his servant because he wanted to be and that being a servant is an honorable thing.

[Nenya]

This is an interesting thread. I agree with Algamesh. There were Social Divisions that occur in LOTR.

The story about Eldacar (ROTK-Appendix A). Romendacil King of Gondor sent his son Valacar as an ambassador to Rhovanion.
Rhovanion is land of the Northmen. Their king was Vidugavia. Romendacil showed especial favour to him, who had aided him in the war.
Valacar felt in love and married with Vidumavia, daughter of Vidugavia. From this marriage came later the war of the Kin-Strife.
High Men of Gondor already "looked askance" at the Northmen among them. Although the Queen had been a fair and noble lady, she still "a lesser and alien race" for them.
They were unwilling to accept Eldacar her son to be their King. When he succeeded his father he must faced the rebels that rose againts him.

The story about Wild men and The Rohirrim (ROTK Chapter V -The Ride Of The Rohirrim).The Rohirrim thought that the wild men were wild and wary as a beasts and hunt people with their poisoned arrow. Because of that The Rohirrim hunt them like a beast.
When King Theoden rode to Mundburg to aid Gondor, he ran out of time. Ghan-buri-Ghan leader of the wild men offer him a secret path to Gondor.
There was a deal between King Theoden and Ghan-buri-Ghan. But when King Theoden gave him rich reward, he refused it. Ghan-buri-Ghan only said "..leave Wild Men alone in the woods and do not hunt them like beasts any more". That's very touching.

[Catz]

while i agree that it is a relection of the social mores of the times in which Tolkien grew up, its also a human thing....
Put any group of people together and they will very quickly band together into diffferent groups based on thier percieved similarities...and then emphasise the differences between them and any other groups, to give themselves a unique group indentity...this is why geneology is so popular.....you "find your roots" the group into which you belong......this is a primal human drive....a human deprived of such social grouping becomes dysfuctional very quickly...
whoops....ramble on kitty.....:rolleyes: lol roflmao
:catz:

[Lady Melody]

Well, it's obviously a lot in the book... we are speaking about the realm where kings and myths rule, so to speak, there are social status which is too rich to be explained here...

[Finrod Felagund]

Nearly all the characters are princes/esses, kings/queens or have some direct relation to some kind of nobility... Except Sam, who ends up saving the day.

[Tar-Ancalimë]

ah... that's so touching. I never thought of that before.
I like it.

[Catz]

yeah well thats one of the major themes of the book isnt it....that "even the smallest person can change the course of the future" and thats not just referring to physical size, but to status as well....
:catz:

[Lady Melody]

I think it relates more to how small and an unsignificant thing or so it seems to be can make a whole lot of difference...

[Tar-Ancalimë]

you mean like the ring?

[Moria]

Social divisions are SO evident in the Lord of the Rings books. It is evident within the separate groups of people (ei, hobbits, elves,dwarfs, etc.) The social division between Sam and Frodo, as was mentioned. It is also evident in the way the groups are seen compared to each other. Everywhere you look there are references to social classes.:)

[Stormrider]

Algamesh: This is a good topic! I will need to look these over moire closely as I read through FOTR, TTT, and ROTK. There are social classes in all of the cultures in LOTR.

There are the lower class Hobbits and the well-to-do Hobbits in the Shire. However, it seems there are more commoners in the Shire.

The Rohirrim have different ranks in their cavalry and a King, his councellor, guards, etc.

The Men of Gondor have ranks, too. The Stewards are the appointed safe keepers of the realm until the King should return and there are lower classes of people, too.

The Orcs even have Captains and privates so to speak and their human superiors, too.

The Elves seem to be more evenly classed though. They all seem more regal and high up and yet they all have their own roles to play in their communities, too.

The Dwarves also had Kings and servants and commoners.

Even in the Silmarillion there are definate classes and ranks Valar, Maiar, Istari, First Borns, The Second People, monsters, vile creatures, etc.

[Tar-Ancalimë]

Originally posted by Stormrider
The Elves seem to be more evenly classed though. They all seem more regal and high up and yet they all have their own roles to play in their communities, too.

Hm... you seem to be right about that. Even like Legolas the Prince of an elf-kingdom doesn't seem higher than the other elves... now that's interesting. I think next time I read the books I'll study that more often

[Daisy Gamgee]

As Catz said, whenever you put a group of people together, you are going to get social divisions. If you have a leader of a group, that also increases the division. Even in todays army, the officers and higher ranks are separate to the lowly soldiers - they have separate mess's and occasions. In some countries the division is even more notciable with the commoners having no money and the government or leaders living in regal splendur. Tolkien must have been aware of all the different divisions, and so to make middle earth more realistic, he included the divisions. To have no social divisions is a unachievable ideal.