Origin of Orcs

[Tinwë]

I read in the Silmarllion that Orcs came from Elves, but later, I heard that in Tolkien's letters, he said that Orcs came from Men...which one is the correct origin?




-Tinwe :elfqueen:

[Nessa]

Hmmm... It is my understanding that Tolkien was unhappy with the explanation he gave of the orcs beginning and expressed that in a one of his letters... is that what you read, Tinwe?

Actualy I'm rather curious about this as well.....?

[Catz]

yeah...youre right Nessa. Originally the Orcs were to have come from Elves, but Tolkien later decided that he didnt like that idea.....he was prone to doing that ;) .....and did say that he was unhappy with the idea in the Letters. As to which is definitve.....either i suppose for the books, and in the movies of course, theyve gone for the elvish origin....
:catz:

[Orofacion of the Vanyar]

Aiya Tinwe mae govannen,

I consider the orc/man origin to be the correct one due to that being Tolkien's last written thoughts on the matter. The Silmarillion was complied after his passing, and was published before he could change the origin officially.

Also, we are given both the LotR and the Silmarillion through the eyes of actual individuals in Tolkien's mind so there is bound to be some "inaccuracies" in the explanations behind certain things.

Glad you put this out here for all to read and learn. :thumbs:

[Orc]

Orcs from Elves is commonly held beacuse of what is written in the Silmarillion, but even then if you look close at what is written, it states that the Elven eldars believed that this is what happened to elves that either wandered off or were captured.

But as stated before, the Sil was publised post mortum and in a unpolished state, which must be taken into consideration when reading it.

Orcs from Men seems to fit better, especially in the context of the LotR. If you look at the dialog spoken by the orcs, it falls more closely to that of men than elves. I've often wondered if the conversation between Gorbag and Shagrat wasn't taken from a couple of Tolkien's buddies in the trenches of WWI complaining about their officers and how much they'd rather be home.

[Sindarin]

Interesting thoughts. I like everyone's ideas on this subject. :thumbs:

Personally, I think the origin of the orcs could go either way, given all the literature that can be cross-referenced.

[Pil]

It seems so horrible to think that they came from elves...could they REALLY be used so? mecry

The have them come from men would make more sense...i agree that in some ways they can be seen to act like men...but you would be hard put to to find a likeness between orcs and elves...apart from the film's pointed ears... :huh:

[Orc]

Originally posted by Pil
It seems so horrible to think that they came from elves...could they REALLY be used so? mecry


I say we try a simple experiment. One of the base axiums of science is reproducability. To prove weather or not orcs came from elves we'll just have to reproduce the process by experimenting with numerous varaibles.

Now if only someone can provide me with an endless supply of elves, I'll retreat to my lab and start the experiments.......

[Pil]

:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

RUN ELVES RUN!!!!!!! mecry

[Catz]

you forgot "Bwahahahahah" Dr Orc......:rolleyes:

well for me its actually more satisfying for them to be derived from Elves (Orc just doesnt want to end up related to someone who uses all the hair gel:naughty: lol )
Total debasement from the greatest race in ME...and also i think that when he first concieved the idea Tokien had Lucifer in mind...the brightest angel of all who became Satan. but that later he realised that that left him with loose ends that were difficult to tie up. But thats just a personal preference...
:catz:

[Pil]

Interesting thought :thumbs:

[Ancalimon]

Well in the first battle of Beleriand the orcs entered into Beleriand and attacked. Yet that was before the Noldor entered into Middle Earth, which was when the sun first rose and men were first born. So it impossible for the orcs to have once been men.

[Pil]

Well that kinda wraps it up doesn't it?! :huh:

[Gowpon]

I just see orc as orc...I don't really care if they HAD anything to do with elves, man...or hobbits what so ever...even pigs I won't care...:p
Orc is just orc...the past is the past!! ;)
Don't try to link orc with human and elves without linking monkey to modern human! They are soooo different now!:cool:

[Goldilocks]

How sad it would be if they were Elves! To think of a beautiful, immortal life stolen....being tortured....It breaks one's heart...

[Mirkgirl]

Why should their origins be another race.... After all, the only thing stating they are is the refusal of everyone to believe in Melkor's creative powers, based on the single fact they never saw anything live created by him....

[Tinwë]

Orcs aren't immortal, are they? IF they were from elves, then would they not be immortal as well?

[Mirkgirl]

I don't think we ever get a clear statement whether the orcs are mortal... and most probably it didn't matter as they died in battles young.

[Pil]

i like to think of them as mortal...gets them off the planet quicker! :angry: :thumbs:

[Tinwë]

Yes, they do usually all die young. If not from battle, then from killing each other. Mean tempers these orcs have ;)

[Pil]

I don't think many of the orcs would have got the chance to grow old, i quite agree! :elfeek:

[Algamesh]

I, myself, prefer the scenario of Orcs being ruined forms of Elves. Morgoth perverted the things that he hated most ... the trolls from the Ents and the Orcs from the Elves. Men contained many qualities that were acceptable to Morgoth ... greed, envy, lust, etc. I think that in the grand scheme of things ... Morgoth realized that with Men ... no perversion was necessary!

[Tinwë]

Trolls are from Ents? Sorry if I sound stupid, but I haven't read the Sil :blush:

[Catz]

you dont sound stupid Tinwe...like Algy said, Morgoth created/corrupted Trolls and Orcs from Elves and Ents, to make mockery of Illuvatar(hehehe or at least thats one version of the story;) )
And yes Algy, youve just put into words my thought. That orcs were a mockery of the brightest and best...Illuvatars children, the Elves...and i like the point about men:thumbs:
:catz:

[Gowpon]

I agree with "Orcs have foul temper"
Remember in ROTK, when Frodo and Sam are in Mordor, they said something about two orcs, "fighting each other as usual" :naughty:

[Pil]

Originally posted by Catz
i like the point about men:thumbs: :catz:

I agree! Men could be corrupted easily anyway. There was no need to change them. :nono:

[Mirkgirl]

However appealing it sounds, it's not true. Men were not familiar to Morgoth, that's why he was not eager to experiment with them

[Algamesh]

Mirkgirl,

I must differ with your opinion about Morgoth's familiarity of Men. In the Silmarillion, Chapter 17 (Of the Coming of Men into the West), there are a few clues that actually suggest that Morgoth's intervention with Men led to their corruption. If I may quote:

But it was said afterwards among the Eldar that when Men awoke in Hildorien at the rising of the Sun the spies of Morgoth were watchful, and tidings were soon brought to him; and this seemed to him so great a matter that secretly under shadow he himself departed from Angband, and went forth into Middle-earth, leaving to Sauron the command of the War. Of his dealings with Men the Eldar indeed knew nothing, at that time, and learnt but little afterwards; but that a darkness lay upon the hearts of Men ... they (Eldar) percieved clearly even in the poeple of the Elf-Friends whom they first knew ...

and then further ...

To corrupt or destroy whatsoever arose new and fair was ever the chief desire of Morgoth; and doubtless he had this purpose also in his errand: by fear and lies to make Men the foes of the Eldar, and bring them up out of the east against Beleriand.

At this time, of course, Morgoth was forced to leave this "experiment" due to the events of the War with the Eldar. But, in his wake, he left a contingent of servants to work his Dark Arts ...

Morgoth certainly was aware and even concerned about the Fate of Men. The literature leads one to believe that there probably was a population of Men who worshipped the Dark Lord (although this isn't specifically stated at this point in the history o fthe Edain ... just inferred). No man was truly free from Morgoth's influence though because even among the Elf-Friends, the Eldar percieved Morgoth's designs ...

[QUOTE]

[Mirkgirl]

Yes that's true but he had imprisoned men too, so why didn't he turn them into something like orcs... or maybe that was because they didn't need it :huh:

Hmm I'll have to think more about this...