Easterling weapons and armour

[IronHills Dwarf]

I found the easterlings one of the most interesting cultures introduced by the film adeptation of TTT. However there are several things I found rather confusing or annoying regarding their weapons and armour.

Firstly they carry two lengths of pike. Mostly what is shown is the long pike that is quite tall and towers over the heads of the carriers. Then there is the shorter version that the two warriors who investigate Frodo and Sam carry. however they do not carry shields. So was the shorter pike used to denote some special rank of Easterling? In the design galleries of the TTT Extended an easterling is shown posing with the shorter version of the pike and a shield. Rather confusing. Thoughts or comments?

The longer version seems somewhat impractical to me if used while carrying a shield (the curved shape of the shield means that the shield arm would be of no use for wielding the pike), the blade can hardly be wielded as the length of the weapon means that it cannot be wielded with one arm, meaning that only the spike would be of use (actually rather useful in the event of an enemy cavalry charge, butt end spike imbeded in the ground, one arm supporting the length of the pike). Having the shield slung over the back with both arms available for the pike would make more sense, the shield then being used in conjunction with the one handed sword for close quarters fighting. Any thoughts or comments on this?

Secondly something I found rather annoying was that the Haradrim carry the same pikes and same armour (albeit without the hemlets and leg guards) when you see them marching through Ithilien. Either they simply ran out of props and desided to cut a few corners or they were trying to created a cultural similarity between the two. Which brings up the question, where exactly are these Easterlings supposed to come from, which region of the East? Now given the joint use of pikes and armour one could make the point that these Easterlings might be intended as coming from the lands to the North East of Mordor, close to Khand. However this is only a theory in an attempt to justify this rather strange sharing of weapons and armour.

One rather interesting point that I was able to make clear for myself with the TTT DVD was with regards to the Easterlings swords. The two Easterlings that investigate the minor landslides created by Frodo and Sam both carry swords, worn naked (without sheath) at the belt. Stepping the footage should enable you to view the hilts and some portions of the blades.

[Steve the Great]

First of all, I'm a bit confuesd, whether they're really easterlings or not... :huh:
If you check this (http://www.fantasyplanet.cz/gfx/pictures_clanky/lotr_gal_velky_200211292325165696.jpg) picture, you can see that they have a banner with a black serpent... This was the standard of the haradrim, not the easterlings...
Dont' you think that they're the heavy infantry of haradrim?

[IronHills Dwarf]

Throughout the DVD they are refered to as "Easterlings", but your idea of heavy infantry makes much more sense. Certainly the descriptions Tolkien gives do not match up with these "Easterlings".

However they seem much better armed and armoured in comparision with the so called Haradrim that they appear to me anyway as a separate culture.

[Steve the Great]

Okay, I tried to find pictures about the different armanets and tactics of these easterlings (btw. did you see them in ROTK?).
- As you said most of them carry those long pikes with large shields. I think, it would be pretty useful against enemy cavalry or infantry in open field (like the ancient macedonians used their phalanxes). But it seems to me that they were used together with orcish forces to fight in Minas Tirith (pic1 (http://shop.decipher.com/TCG/Card.aspx?gameID=7&cardID=2514), pic2 (http://shop.decipher.com/TCG/Card.aspx?gameID=7&cardID=2525), pic3 (http://shop.decipher.com/TCG/Card.aspx?gameID=7&cardID=2515)) I think, it's rather disadvantageous for them...
- There were some who had shorter weapon (sometimes it's called halberd) without shiled: like in this (http://www.decipher.com/lordoftherings/cardlists/ents/large/LOTR-EN06078.html) or this (http://shop.decipher.com/TCG/Card.aspx?gameID=7&cardID=2512) picture.
- There were also easterlings who carried sword with shield, like in this (http://shop.decipher.com/TCG/Card.aspx?gameID=7&cardID=2499) picture.
The last two type of easterling would be quite efficient in fighting in a city, but I didn't see too many of them, so maybe they are the commanders of smaller or larger units...

[IronHills Dwarf]

Interesting pictures.

In the first it appears that a few of the Easterlings are not carrying the long pikes (halberds) but are carrying shields, as I mentioned before the TTT DVD has a gallery for them showing one carrying both the short halberd and the shield.

The second picture is not particularly interesting but yes the Easterlings are at Minas Tirith. Its rather hard to spot them in ROTK, but the second time round I did see a few.

The third picture is rather interesting because it shows the easterling manuvering with his long pike. Seems they have rather strong wrists! My problem with the Macedonian phalanx analogy is that as I mentioned before I see no way the shield arm could be used to handle the pike. Personally the long pikes appear to large to make much use of them with one arm. Perhaps you see it differently?

The picture of the sword carrying Easterling with the shield is also interesting. I would assume that all of the Easterlings (short and long pike) would carry a sword.

This is the only picture I could find at the moment showing the shield, short halberd, and sword all together.
pic (http://www.alleycatscratch.com/lotr/Human/Rohan/Armor/Rohan_Shield_sj.jpg)

[Steve the Great]

Originally posted by IronHills Dwarf
Personally the long pikes appear to large to make much use of them with one arm.


Yes, I think you're right. This ones are too long (and their 'head' are too heavy) to handle them with one arm.
The key would be to use the other hand to hold the pike (like the macedonians in this (http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/gabrmetz/alexndr1.gif) or this (http://24.24.31.212/literature/phalanx-LDS.jpg) pic).
As far as I know in Middle Age halberds were two-handed weapons (pic1 (http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/dghalb.jpg) or pic2 (http://www.tournamentproductions.org/photos/sb99/halberd1.gif)), so these easterlings are seem to me quite impractical equiped ...

(btw. I move this thread to the Armoury coz it's more appropriate there...)

[IronHills Dwarf]

Well unfortunate as it may sound given the minor role and short screen time of the Easterlings, making sure that they could function in as practical a way as the other cultures was probably not a priority. However I think that they could simply have given them all the short pike. Would have solved a fair number of problems. :wink:

Not a problem moving the thread, I'm a moderator for a data-base style forum, so believe me I appreciate organzation. :)

[azimaith]

Well, shields have more uses than simply in the front. Vikings were notorious for slinging their shields on their backs while fighting as a sign of bravery, it also came in use when they were retreating from battle against archers. Also, many shields can be linked together helping alleiviate some of the strain on one arm. As long as the pike is in your instep there shouldn't be too much trouble with holding it with one hand. However, you are right, halberds are usually two handed weapons that are used primarily to get through heavy armor. They also happen to have a spike on their tip allowing them to be set against charges. Of course, if you look at many polearms, they have so many flanges and hooks they look like a deranged canopener.

Oh and Steve, in pic one I think thats a bill hook, not a halberd.

Anyhow, during battle what you came in with is not what you always had, many used shields simply to stop missile fire then dropped them when they were close enough, others wore them on their backs like turtle shells for some added protection and the ability to use their weapons two handed.

[Steve the Great]

Originally posted by azimaith
Oh and Steve, in pic one I think thats a bill hook, not a halberd.

Yep, you're right (to tell the truth, I even didn't know its English name :blush: ).
It's a bit offtopic, but I found a quite good summary (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/9939/arms.htm) of medieval polearms. Maybe you'll find it interesting... :grin:

[azimaith]

Nice summary, i'm glad he mentioned the family of pole axes, they get left out so much.

[IronHills Dwarf]

Originally posted by azimaith
[B]Well, shields have more uses than simply in the front. Vikings were notorious for slinging their shields on their backs while fighting as a sign of bravery, it also came in use when they were retreating from battle against archers. Also, many shields can be linked together helping alleiviate some of the strain on one arm. As long as the pike is in your instep there shouldn't be too much trouble with holding it with one hand.



I'm afraid I'm not sure quite what you mean by having the halberd in the instep, could you eleberate further perhaps? Thanks.

With regards to the shields slung over the back, I already mentioned this posibility. However given how they were protrayed marching (shield held in hand) it would seem strange if that were the case. (marching would certainly be easier with it slung)

With regards to linking shields (if I understand you correctly) I do not think this would be practical. Even if your shield arm could have the hand on the pike a blow to the shield could shatter the wrist where it crosses the edge of the shield, because of the curve of the shield.

[azimaith]

Well put it this way, take your foot and put one facing directly in front of you and the second 90 degrees out. In this posistion the polearm would be leaned forward and put directly in the center of the back foot. Thats a polearm in your instep, it allows for more stability.

And I have no idea why they marched with shield in hand, i guess they just wanted to show them off.

And linking shields means attaching shields to another soldiers and using the other hand to stick the polearm through the crack between the two. It involve a pole arm in one hand and a shield in the other.

[IronHills Dwarf]

Thanks. I didn't realize you were talking about a static manuvere.

[Feanor]

I was reading the post you made and the one were you said where the men come from in the east caught my eye. There are two lands that are south and one land that is east of Mordor. The two in the south are Harad and Khand. They are called Southrons. The one in the east is called Rhun and they are the Easterlings. Khand is kind of both really.

[Nilion Elentano]

It might not be of any use but then again it might...
The only thing I know about both kind of armour is through my own long reads about Eastern kinds of armour, and even tho it might not be acknowledged by the designers of the film (not saying that they don't), the influences lies basically in the design of a kind of armour called Chahar-Ai-Ne

Here are two links to the illustrations of this sort of armour I'm borrowing from a site which provided me with some enlightening information about Eastern Armour


Chahar-Ai-Ne #1 (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505/chr-oct.gif)

Chahar-Ai-Ne #2 (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505/char-rec.gif)

here a photo of the armour for the films where you can see the armour which covers the torso is in essence a Chahar-Ai-Ne

Easterling armour (http://images1.fotki.com/v13/photos/1/16957/160817/1232376_IMG-vi.jpg)

regarding the weapons I will have to read some more aboutyour points Ironhills Dwarf, but not at this time of the night I'm afraid:( but in the mean time here a photo of the standard Easterling weaponry for the film

Easterling weapons (http://images1.fotki.com/v12/photos/1/16957/160817/1232374_IMG-vi.jpg)

Hope the information is of some use :thumbs:

[IronHills Dwarf]

I'm afraid the first two pics don't seem to work Nilion. Any chance there's another source they could be viewed from?

[Eomund]

yes, would be appriciated...

anyway that picture with a sword makes for me no more sense for i dont recall any swords.

In MiddleAges Halbeerds were used as guarding weapons, pikemen, who guardeed palaces and castles, sometimes also agaimst cavalry...

[IronHills Dwarf]

Oh the swords are there you just have to know what your looking for. You can see them at the sides of the two who come to look at the disturbance made by Frodo and Sam. Look carefully for the bronze handles and the naked blades.

[Eomund]

okay, but i know i would haven oticed them on infantry.