PJ's Adaptation of Flight to the Ford

[Illuvatar]

It's been said that PJ's exclusion of the character Glorfindel in the Flight to The Ford bit, and introducing Arwen in that role was done in order to bring a strong female character into the movie early on. What do you think? Should he have stuck more true to the book, was it effective?

[WinterSoul]

yes this was made in order to bring forth a leading female character, for there must be at least one in a movie. That's what people say. Others say that the appearance of Arwen {Lyv Tyler} was refreshing. Well personally, i did mind her appearance, for her part is not that significant in the book. Afterall Glorfindel saves Frodo not Arwen. I think that P.J has done too much of her in the movie and i don't like that. Not that it's really teasing me it's just that from the whole movie that was the thing which mostly surprised me {And the swords in the hands of the Argonath instead of axes :-)} - not serious on this one but that was a thing i noticed after the second watching of the movie.
back to the question :
"Should he have stuck more true to the book, was it effective?"

For me it was not effective and i think i would have enjoyed it more if it was at least a little bit closer to the book.
The movie is called "LOTR" isn't it? So it should keep to the story more or less not totally change role of characters - putting Arwen instead of Glorfindel and keeping his deeds.
That was a bit strange but i put up with it :)


WinterSoul

[Ronin]

Personally, and this is from a completely admitted Tolkien purist, I didn't have too many problems with Arwen's inclusion. i thought it was well played by PJ to attract newbie viewers and perhaps more women by establishing a strong female "lead". obviously, it would've been really great to see Glorfindel rescue Frodo and those hinting glimpses of Arwen...but i can see why it was done, i thought it was effective, and didn't think it took too much away from the overall effect of a Tolkien movie made by fans, for fans.

[Fatty]

Yes it is a hard one, I think Liv carried the role quite well. though it did detract from Frodo and his resistance at the ford. Thogh maybe they wanted him to appear far weaker than he does i the book. The movie is based on the books I guess and not a direct transfer from one media to another.

In fact the cartoon verison by Baski stuck closer to the book as far as it went. I am slightly concerned about The Two Towers, I am sure it will be a great film, but they seems to have changed a whole lot of stuff. If so Arwen's inclusion could go beyond the slight bemusement on the first film and become somewhat farsicle.

[Orc]

I've always thought that Arwen's replacement of Glorfindel worked to a greater or lesser degree for the movie. In the books it is easy to miss or overlook the realtionship between Aragorn and Arwen at Rivendel. I think PJ wanted to play up the romantic realtionship as well as Arwen's decision to become mortal for the movie crowds - especailly for those not familiar with the books. It helps introduce the character in the movie, while in the books we only get the briefest glimpse of Arwen and Aragorn together. I wasn't thrilled about Arwen's facing off with the Nazgul at the ford, but acepted it.

Of course, now that PJ has introduced Arwen and the romance between here and Aragorn, he has to include it somehow in TTT. My guess is that she will bring the reforged Narsil to Aragorn at some point. Let's just hope she isn't at Helm's Deep....

[Ronin]

well, i believe we've all seen the pictures of Arwen in action at Helm's Deep. so, we know the footage was shot...can only hope that it joined the myriad of scenes with Ms. Arwen on the cutting room floor. and from the recent TTT trailer i think its pretty much guaranteed that Arwen shall deliver Narsil to Aragorn...fingers crossed that it shall not be so...but other than that, hoping she won't be too heavily involved in any of the action.

[tosca]

i hadn't read the book before i saw the movie...so i didn't even know any of this, plus i wasn't attached to the real story.

but...i really don't think it mattered which Elf saved Frodo...i mean, was there any particular reason it was Glorfindel and NOT Arwen to start with?? (i've read it twice now...but i may have missed some of the subtle nuances)

but...yeah. i mean, obviously...some people might have thought that the film was sexist or whatever for not showing many females...plus she is gorgeous and that MUST have drawn SOME viewers...but yeah.

i think...i'll be ****ed off about whatever changes PJ makes to TTT and RotK...just because i know the book now. like Chocolat. THEY CHANGED THE ENDING!! i mean, what is WITH that?!?!

yes then. i'm done.

[Ronin]

well, the overriding principle of why it was not Arwen instead of Glorfindel to begin with is the origin of the tale out of the Victorian era in which men were focused upon more than women.

PJ is making a lot of changes, but most are quite understandable. we'll just have to wait to see if they translate well onto the screen.

[Fatty]

Yeah I agree, plus Arwen was the very symbol of the end of Elven kind in ME, the Evenstar. The phasing out of direct involvement etc. So it throws that a bit out the window..... but I do like liv and so can live with it ;-)

[Pil]

Firstly, I am sooo hacked off bout Arwen/Liv, I mean 'Honey, just cos your dad's famous doesn't mean you have to shove your boobs up at tolkein fans'.

I was officially p.oed at her inclusion in the trailer, what's up with her with the whole 'lying absentmindedly on a bed, looking susiciously lifeless...'?

Plus, i've heard that TTT will not include Schlob or 'the choices of master samwise'! Only one of my FAV chapters! PJ will get a kicking if it's true!

I can kick his butt personally if u like...see the thread bout new zealand holidays...! Ahhh!

[Catz]

i dont want to rehash on a lot of stuff that has already been said...*grins*...a lot of it by yours truly....
but were talking about 3 movies, not a book....changes are inevitable....Glorfindel was never likely to be in....you just dont have time in a movie with this much material to cover to introduce a character that appears once and then is never seen again...plus the fact that there are more than enough names for the Tokien virgins to digest, without putting in an extra one for the sake of one scene....yeah, its a pity that Frodo's scene at the ford was played down, but i suspect that the idea is to emphasise his growth over the course of the movies, from frightened child to leader....im reserving judgement as to whether or not it works til ive seen all the movies...
as for the Shelob thing...to be honest, TTT has so much in it, that i think id have seperated the movies there too...it makes dramatic sense, not to stuff all your big events into the one movie, so its perfectly understandable...i mean you already have all those huge battles
please god dont give arwen a fight scene.....pretty please......
;) lol

[Ronin]

aye catz, we certainly don't want u belabouring any kind of subject :rolleyes:

ach, we know Liv has filmed at least one major fight scene whilst on a horse for TTT...just hoping PJ leaves most of Arwen on the cutting room floor for the rest of the films as he has with FOTR.

and ROTK is, admittedly, a rather 'light' book in comparison to the other two...making it a rather light movie if PJ completely followed everything line by line. Personally, would've loved to have seen on screen TTT end on such a bleak note as the book did...but, we know why the changes have been made....so wise enough.

[Pil]

I still think the whole 'Frodo captured...sam ring-bearer' thing is a pretty important part of the book and should be included in the film!

Dear god, i agree...arwen is just not a fighty kinda girl. Eowyn's the fiesty female, arwen's just the pretty elf on the side! :-)

[Catz]

how about belabouring a fanboy mod then?....:fanboy: lol
yeah Pil, it is...which is why its not a good idea to chop it in half with a year in between the movies, or try to wedge it into the end of a movie thats already jam packed....i have faith in PJ's dramatic sense....he has a good eye for the flow of scenes and theres also the fact that as you have three movies, you need three climaxes, as well as having each movie build up to a final climax, so they need to keep something back for the final movie...how itll work...well, that we'll have to wait and see, but i think it'll work fine....:cool:

[Mirkgirl]

To give Arwen(Liv) a sword is a murder :evilcool:

And say it honestly between movie's Arwen and Eowyn who is the natural choice of Aragorn? He loved the prety elven princess, not the enthusiastic, but unskilled female elven warrior. Not to mention the looks of Miranda and Liv.

And what I miss in PJ's interpretation is the elven Princess, which carries the taste of magic, of Middle-Earth. Tolkein had his point when he said almost nothing about Arwen, he never said she's a beautiful decoration or a dumb and arrogant royalty. For Tolkein she had nothing to do with the main storyline (which is so) and so she was just a background. A wise future quin, who is not riding against Nazguls to frighten them or to make them fall from the horses rolling in the river with laughter, but she has the best qualities for her role, which is not a warrior.

Movie Arwen make the role of the women in LotR look shallow IMO.

[Catz]

i dont know that id go that far Mirky, but i do see what you mean......putting Arwen centre stage did remove that sense of mystery about her character....but that very lack of written material gave the film makers a problem....no she wasnt a warrior....actually,in the books she wasnt anything...just a name, with all her story filled out in the appendices...an option not avaliable on film......and i really dont think a contemporary audience would have been able to watch a character which they had by then(hopefully...) developed an attachment to, marry some woman theyd never heard of, never seen....a Tolkien virgin, who didnt have the background of the appendices story aof Aragorn and Arwen would have been baffled.
i dunno.....i just feel that the movie arwen could have worked better with a more convincing actress....i mean, Liv with a sword???? cue bad guy: Bwwwhahahahaha!!! result? one smooshed elf princess....
i just never feel that Arwen could hold her own in a fight, and that *grins* youre right, Mirky....those Ringwraiths fell into the Bruinin from laughter lol
heheh.....ooops, that went on a bit.....sorry....just catz rambling again....:catz:

[Beregond]

I think adding Arwen's greater part in the Fellowship was kind of pointless. I'm not against having a strong female character, but if that's what they were trying to do, they failed. They changed the story, but she still did barely anything. She just rode their, talked with Aragorn, and that's it . . .

[Bonos-Girl]

the thing is - if i was a guy then i would probably not mind her having a bigger part (not being completely stereotypical here, i know some guys either don't like liv orthink that pj shoulda kept to the book, or any other reason).
For some reason she really really annoys me, i don't even know what it is about her that annoys me coz she is quite a good actress and she did all the elvish quite well (if anyone knows if it wsa all sindarin or not could they please tell me because i've been on several different sites and the on;y thing they can agree on is that the majority in the film was sindarin as oppposed to quenya, i would love to know). There are just some people who really annoy me, if anyone knows the members in U2 I just hate Adam Clayton and I don't know why, it's not like he did anything to make me dislike him but i do. ok, i'll shut up now

[Pil]

Bonos-girl...Adam does NOT deserve such abuse! :witch:

BUUUUUT...other people don't want to hear about our personal banter... I agree hun, Liv is an ok actor but scrub me down and call me alan if she is a good arwen...! :guzzle:

[Bonos-Girl]

im sorry pil
i know he doesn't, I have nothing against him but i just dislike him
haven't you ever just seena picture of someone or somethying and thought that yoiu disliked them
if i ever meet him (i will be sooo lucky coz i might meet bono!!) then i will probably get over the whole hating thing but...
:flamer:
:flamer:

[Mirkgirl]

I can't even remember who Adam is but whatever... Liv... I kinda like her in general but she makes an awful Arwen, not to mention that I'm scared for her life every time she catches a sword.

[Catz]

never mind her life.....its the poor mugs around her i feel sorry for......you can just see it cant you.....Liv grabs a sword, and everyone hits the decks!!!!lol :o lol
:catz:

[Mirkgirl]

Not to mention the laughter threat (poor Nazguls ):)

[Catz]

yeah...lol
you can just see it....
Scene: Rivendell.....Elrond hs just been told that the ringbearer is close, but pursued by Nazgul....he must send them aid!
Elrond: i must send aid to the ringbearer....now who amongst this company can face the Nazgul and defeat them?
Glorfindel: My Lord......I shall go....the servants of the dark lord shall flee before my glory revealed........
Elrond grimaces, tho whether tis from the brave offer of the elf lord or from the charges on the credit card bill he is reading is hard to say.......as he throws it onto the table, Glorfindel can see but one word on its many entries....the arcane term Versacce...a most powerful spell in the hands of a user like Arwen Evenstar.....
Elrond: No brave Glorfindel.....i need you here....im having the fitting for that new robe today, and i think it makes me look fat.....i want your opinion......no.....we shall send my daughter!!....We'll give her a sword.....
Elrond pauses at the look of horror on the face of the Elf Lord....
Elrond: A blunt one of course....good lord man....we need the ringbearer alive!!!! otherwise we might have to take the damn thing!!!....with any luck, the Nazgul will take one look and laugh so much they fall into the Bruinen.....
And thus was history made....and the prophesy of Elrond was fulfilled......
or something like that;) :grin:
:catz:

[Mirkgirl]

rofl rofl rofl rolf rofl

entdraugh catz, well deserved

[Catz]

:embarras: glad you liked, heheh cheers Mirky....entdraught
:catz:

[A! Elbereth]

hahahalol lol lol great story!

[Bonos-Girl]

adam is the guitarist but thats kinda irrevelivent. I love the new script, it's sooo amusing :) :) :)

[Pil]

:rofl: :) :rofl: HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHE!

V.AMUSANTE!!!!!

[Bonos-Girl]

That Whole dark and chaotic..... thing is an ash song right???

Is that the 'theres a star' song???

[Pil]

You've done your homework!! Yeah it is! Anyone else like my new addition to my signature? :)

Arwen...or at least Liv (as EVERYONE knows) is just sooo not my fav character at the mo! :rolleyes:

I am a fan of Glorfindel (any more out there...they seem thinnly spread!) and i was...well...mildly annoyed at his being left out and replaced by an elf-maiden. :elf:

He's a pretty cool guy really... friend of Elrond...Rivendell elf... I wonder if he's chummy with Sindarin? ;)

[Nessa]

Frodo's defiance at the ford is my favorate part of the book, and although the scene wasn't done badly, I really missed his courage in that scene.

[Pil]

THATS the sort of frodo that i wanted to see more of. The whole 'ring influence thing' came on too early. Plus, i think they over did the morgul splinter thing, frodo wasn't that bad until after the flight to the ford sequence was over. :mmmm:

[Algamesh]

The Flight at the Ford scene, IMHO, was a bit of a failure. There was so much more that went on ... I would really have liked to witness Aragorn and GLORFINDEL march the remaining Nazgul into the Ford. Now that was kewl !!!

[Nessa]

Pil! You agree! Perhaps you'll also agree that the flaws in Frodo's character were the fault of writing and directing, and not Wood's acting, I have trouble convincing people of this. I hope to see a little more bravery from Frodo in the next two films.

[Catz]

i dont think its a matter of fault.....more a directors decision, maybe not to your taste, but still a deliberate strategem.....because...the movies have to make Frodo go from relatively young and carefree, to a being who has to leave all that he risked his life for, because the traumas he endured have so scarred him....in the movies they dont have the luxury of taking thier time over this, and this is why i think, Frod was made to seem a bit helpless at the beginning.....to increase the contrast with the end....and it also plays up the immense power of the forces ranged against the two small hobbits....i think it works, and i think you will see Frodo grow over the next two movies....
:catz:

[A! Elbereth]

Nessa! I absolutely agree with you that Elijah's acting had nothing to do with it! I explained the entire thing this morning in another post with the subject of Frodo's "boring" personality... ugh. personally I'm sick of hearing insults upon the characters in the movie -- including Arwen

[Kate Baggins]

verymad verymad

I will say that I was very ****ed off the first time I saw Flight to the Ford on the big screen.... I thought it was horrible, cause it's one of my favourite parts!! mecry I feel that PJ's portrayal of Frodo really detracted from the goodness of the movie and how closely it matched the book...... I say this because that most movies don't have weak heros and Frodo is supposed to be the hero, though we still have the rest of the Fellowship.... *sigh*
At any rate, I think he'll be better in TTT, judging by the trailer and the fact that PJ can't keep Frodo weak for the whole trilogy....

As to Arwen, I now think it would've been fine to put her into Glorfindel's shoes....... doing exactly as Glorfindel did in the book, which means not riding with Frodo....... Tho, I understand that she had to be intserted in order for ppl to better understand the relationship between her and Aragorn. On the plus side, it's been confirmed that she won't be at Helm's Deep (thank God!) :)

Anyways, I'm done rambling........ I just figured I'd insert my two cents...... oh, I'm new BTW :)

[Ronin]

I don't really understand Kate, u're upset by Wood's portrayal of Frodo as a weak hero? if so, then u should read catz's post a few lines above. really, PJ can only do so much with what he's given...from trying to explain Arwen to introducing one of the 2nd greatest characters in literature, the first being Sam of course ;)

we can expect perfection folks...but lets not go beyond :grin:

[Kate Baggins]

Hehe..... actually, I'm not angered at Wood's portrayal of Frodo, really........ I think he did a wonderful job as the character (and he was cute, too....... ;) but let's not go there)...... but he only had what PJ gave him to work with.......I'm not blaming the actor.

I suppose Catz is right, in some sense....... Tho, I know Frodo was younger in the movie, but in the book he never really faced any past dangers equal to this, I know his parents died and all that.... but then, that was never explained in the film, nor was his rather bad life at Brandy Hall as a troublemaker until he went to live with Bilbo, so I guess there's a reason why he was so brave in the book and not the movie, or when he was at the Borrow Downs and and his friends were in danger (wish that had been included, but I dunderstand the time thing).

I dunno, Frodo's my favourite character and so I'm just angry that he got changed..... tho, he was better off then some of the others in terms of changes... like Gimli, who had such a small role in the movie. In fact, everyone got changed...... cept Gandalf and Sam.......... and Legolas.

I'm just upset that Flight to the Ford was changed......... and I always will be, I guess, but thanks for making me understand why PJ changed Frodo the way he did......... now I can't wait to see the Two Towers :D

[Catz]

the thing is Kate...and welcome btw:grin: :cool: , that this is a movie were talking about....and the one thing that is guaranteed to have to be changed when a movie is made from a book, especially a long book, is the character expositions....there just isnt time, as you say...which is a pity, but a fact nonetheless....and also that in a movie, you dont have the option of skipping back a few pages to check out a characters backstory as you can in a book, so things like backstory, almost inevitably get simplified....this characters motivation needs to be obvious to the average viewer without them knowing about his background.....;) dont worry im sure youll be happier with Frodo as we go along in the movies....:cool:
:catz:

[Pil]

Are you sure she's not gonna be at helms deep? :hearnoevil:

[Bonos-Girl]

isn't she...i thought she was

[Nessa]

Its been confirmed (or i'm pretty sure it has been) that arwen will be at Helm's Deep. Its just not known what she'll be doing there. As long as she'd not fighting, I don't have a problem with this. Just as I wouldn't have had a problem with her in Glorfindel's place if she would've left Frodo's speech alone.

[Pil]

yeh ,frodo's speech was a pretty powerful moment for him and by giving it to arwen it takes away even more from his personality! :p

[Bonos-Girl]

wow...you thought a lot about that didn't you...

[Nessa]

Are you talking to me or Pil bg? If it was me then yes, its my favorate part of the book 1!

[Ronin]

It has both been confirmed that Arwen is and is not at Helm's Deep. We know that the footage was filmed, yet whether or not they were excised from the film...we still don't really know.

and catz, as always, well put darlin' ;)
we've got to realise the limitations of a movie as opposed to a book. exposition canNOT be focused upon to create a worthwhile movie, or at least one that will become innanely popular. Frodo's character, in my opinion, was indeed transformed incredibly well onto screen...not only having taken into account what PJ had to work with, but also the incredible depth of performance that Elijah gave...hinting at a history that added the impact of Frodo's innocense. it worked. and i think u'll begin to see how well it works as we see Frodo "grow up" and fall apart.

[Nessa]

I agree Ronin that Elijah was incredible, and I'll say again that we'll definately see some bravery in the next two. It makes sense that PJ would use Fotr to establish Frodo's innocence and the fact that he's really not made for the quest, while saving some of the defiance deep in him for the next films. Way to clarify, Ronin. :)

[Catz]

awwww Ronin....such a sweety :smooch: you blushing yet? ;) lol
i think we'll really see the growth in TTT, or at least the start....now that Frodo has been established in the public mind....and im really going to be interested to see if Elijah can carry off the changes that will be required of him, as well as he has played the role so far....personally i think he'll do a great job, but it'll be a challange for him :cool:
:catz:

[Bonos-Girl]

i was talking to pil if anyone still wants to know about my earlier post!!!

[Nessa]

Woops, sorry bg, I thought you were talking to me.

[Pil]

Did anyone else think that the horses in the water used in the flight to the ford sequence in the movie were really good? :elfqueen: :)

[Catz]

:grin: yeah.....in fact the first time i saw it, i sat there for about ten minutes thinking...."they put it in.....they put it in...." with a silly smile on my face....just like Legolas walking on top of the snow on Caradhras....just one of those little "salutes to the readers :read: " that have really endeared this movie to me :thumbs: :grin:
:catz:

[HobbitFriend]

Originally posted by Illuvatar
It's been said that PJ's exclusion of the character Glorfindel in the Flight to The Ford bit, and introducing Arwen in that role was done in order to bring a strong female character into the movie early on. What do you think? Should he have stuck more true to the book, was it effective?

i don't think PJ needed to have Arwen at the flight to the Ford just to have a strong female character because they already have Galadriel and Eowyn (especially Eowyn even though she doesn't come in till later). And i think he should have just stuck to the book, but i have to say i didn't really mind the change too much. ...but this thing i hear about her showing up in TTT... now i don't know about that!:elfeek:

[Catz]

with all due respects to Illu;) , i dont think the rationale was so much to provide a strong female character, as more to strengthen Arwens role...simply because towards the end of the book she marries Aragorn....now in the book if you wished to know more about Arwen, you just flicked to the appendix and read Arwen and Aragorn, but in a movie you have no such option.....plus the fact that people have been with this character (Aragorn)thru 2 movies by then, and a wait of 2 years....to just up and marry him to some woman who is a stranger to them, could very well alienate a goodly part of the viewers....Arwen needed to be familiar.....
As to whether i agree with the way the character was interpreted....thats another story:evilcool: lol lol :rolleyes:
:catz:

[Pil]

In order for the viewers to be joyus about the marriage and happy for aragorn and arwen, we need to know who she is...i completely agree :catz: :thumbs:

[Loravarnion Darkstone]

your right that Arwen needed to be fleshed out a bit so that people would know who she was when Aragorn marries her, so her being in Rivendell making with the love talk was a very wise choice and I stand by it to the end. but on the other hand, if she wasn't in it before then and just appeared out of no where at the Shards of Narsil saying "why do you fear the past?" people who hadn't read the books would be very confused going "who the hell is this chick?" and then when she got a romance scene to herself they would become completely baffled and would also not care one bit. I think it was neccissary for the in-bred members of the audience to see Arwen in a role that everyone could connect to, such as a fight scene, I mean everyone likes a fight scene, and after someones been in one people tend to care about what they have to say.

[Catz]

the rivendell scene was also important in that is showed Arwens choice....of mortality over immortality, something i think will be brought up again.....i liked what they did with Arwen as a character, i just wish theyd had a stronger actress in the role....:grin:
:catz:

[Illuvatar]

Originally posted by catz
with all due respects to Illu;) , i dont think the rationale was so much to provide a strong female character, as more to strengthen Arwens role...

*Illu pats catz on the head, and says "No worries"...:cool:

As I stated when I started this thread "It has been said that PJ's Inclusion...........", I didn't necessarily say that was MY opinion. In fact I just thought it would make for a decent topic of discussion.

My questions were: "What do you think? Should he have stuck more true to the book, was it effective? "

In my opinion, he did a real good job with this, and it was very effective both from a story and from a marketing aspect.

From the story aspect, yes there are other females with Galadriel and Eowyn. Galadriel being a more mythical "witchy" kinda persona that would probably be difficult for the average female in the audience to relate to. Eowyn hasn't been introduced, so she doesn't count. :p

Given this, imho PJ would have been left with two choices: 1) Stick to the book and use Glorfindel in this scene and then never again. 2) Introduce another character (which he did). The latter having very good results as many have stated here already. May I add that I believe it did a little more than just introduce the character.

Unlike Galdriel, the female audience base WOULD be able to relate to Arwen, a strong and smart female with values placed heavily in love and honour. This for one would (as many have said here) save the audience from going "HUH?" when she appears later, it also gives further insight to the relationship between her and Aragorn. AND from the marketing standpoint, it creates a female fan base for a non-male character. If he hadn't done it this way I believe that the success of the movie would have suffered as it could easily have been viewed as a "male dominated action/fantasy" movie. While still dominated with males the inclusion of Arwen changes the scope and the appeal of the movie.

Finally, I believe that PJ is doing a wonderful job in staying true to the Professor's work, and also keep us, the audience in mind. This perhaps is one of the greatest challenges to a moviemaker when translating a well-known work to the screen. On the screen there isn't time to "re-read" a chapter or to refer to the appendices in order to get a better understanding of what the author is trying to relate. You must convey the story and capture the audience, ALL of the audience or face failure.

I haven't said this before (so don't shoot me), but I even like the fact that he casted Liv for the part. She's strong, but not too buff, and pretty as well!! :shhh:

[Nessa]

I liked live in the part, too. It didn't feel like overacting to me, but then again I'm not a movie critic. :) The contrast between her behaviour in the film and in real life is rather shocking....

I don't mind the scene between her and Aragorn by the shards of Narsil, and I really like the bridge scene, I think the romance was well needed. I don't mind her replacing Glorfindel, and I guess I should except the fact that she stole Frodo's moment.... I suppose there were technical difficulties with having a little person on a horse anyway...I'll recover eventually. :grin:

I understand as well why she conjured the river, strength and all, but I would have preferred Gandalf. The thing I have the most problem with is her crying over Frodo all of sudden and that strange 'may the grace within me....' stuff. The tears were abrupt and out of character and I'd rather not see that scene at all.

Overall, I'm impressed with Tyler and how Jackson portrayed it, apart from a few bad lines ("whats this"... you know what I'm talking about).

I apologize for ranting.
:)

[Pil]

Oh Illu! Not you as well?! hearnoevil :angry:

Very well said though mate! :thumbs: I suppose one of the hardest things PJ had to consider was how to introduce the many characters that FOTR includes. By giving arwen the role of glorfindel he could do this for her character while also beginning the love thing with her and aragorn "Ride hard...don't look back..." Aw! :loveyou:

But i still don't think that Liv was strong enough for the role! :knight: lol :p

[HobbitFriend]

yah, i see how PJ needed to introduce Arwen somehow and since he left out the part where Arwen was introduced in the book at that dinner, Glofindel's part was the next best thing... and i thought it was pretty good. :thumbs:

[Catz]

Hmmmm....*catz looks up and considers swiping Illu, but this man has given her choc chip cookies, so she decides to let it slide:cool: lol *
yeah i actually toally agree with the changes made.....tho i dont know that there being no female lead would have hurt the movie so much....i mean, the guys would be watching the action and the main characters....and the gals......would be drooling....ladies, has there ever been a movie with more different flavours of eye candy for women??? ;) lol
its just i feel with a more assured actress, they would have worked better, even tho they worked well...i can live with Liv....its just i keep thinking it could have been better, y'know?
:catz:

[TheRingBearer]

This whole sequence was soo cool. The horse chase was v. impressiveand then the wave with the white horses was just as i imagined it :thumbs:

[Pil]

THAT was FABULOUS! The white horses looked sooo cool. I felt that they were like...not on the side of the elves...but thoroughly against the orcs...like treebeard...they seemed to have a heatred and power that could not be tamed and was purely helping out. It was as if Arwen ASKED the river for help...rather than COMMANDING it. Of course...in the book it's elrond isn't it? ;)

[Catz]

yeah cos in the book all the rivers around Imladris were under his influence....and thats a good point Pil. The eleves of course would ask and not command, they lived in harmony with Middle Earth, and could talk to rivers and trees and animals...the elves taught speech to the ents.....
:catz:

[Pil]

It's an inspiring existence... :elfqueen:

[Daughter of Finarfin]

I still wish it had been Elrond and Gandalf lifting the river, it made non-tolkienites think Arwen was more powerful than she actually is.

Other than that, I don't mind Arwen that much. At least it wasn't Legolas riding with Frodo as in the Bashku version. I am still at debate with myself as to wether I thouroghly disliked or was thouroughly touched by her "by what grace I have..." speech. Still undecided. Ididn't mind the other things in FOTR, but I am worried that she will be in Two Towers too much.

I think it would have been cool if they had shown secret glances et al among Arwen and Aragorn, but they also needed to get the stuff from the appendix in there, or else no one would have understood it.

[Pil]

Suppose....but i don't think it even needed a love story other than sam and rosie...so... :huh:

I agree that the impression given of arwen is completely false. It WOULD have been cool to see gandalf and elrond working together their rings firing up maybe...i can see it now...but a bit of a power-rangers thing with the ring possibly... :blush: lol

[Adamenta]

Tough audience!:( :p
Can I just say that Liv is fine by me. I agree, she did steal a couple of people's thunder but you have to agree that wasn't her fault she did great with what she had to work with. She looked pretty Elvish to me.
Personally I'm glad PJ expanded her character, she gave up a heck of alot for that mortal hero of hers!
And I agree with what everyone else said that was good about her :thumbs:

[Arwen Evenstar]

I don't care that Arwen took Glorfindel's place. In my view, it was pretty effective. I think if he just made her stay at home weaving banners, most people will think that Aragorn should have gone for Eowyn. Before I read the Appendices in ROTK, I thought Arwen was pretty useless and an utterly boring character.
I think Liv did a good job of playing Arwen. Ever since I saw her portrayal of the Evenstar, I've been a die hard A/A supporter. As much as I love Eowyn for her bravery, I do sometimes think that she shouldn't have flirted with Aragorn too much.

[Stormcrow]

Yeah, I agree with you Arwen. Arwen was great. Eowyn did flirt with Aragorn a little too much, if 'flirt' is a nessesary word. She seemed to have, perhaps a 'crush' on him, and I don't think it was a flirting situation, it was more of an 'admiration' of Aragorn. She looked upto him, and sort of went through some kind of faze over him. She felt for him, but it wasn't a real love.

[Arwen Evenstar]

I know she wasn't trying to kiss him, but she concentrated and stared at him too much. I suppose she felt for him because he looked at her like no other man did, he didn't consider her as 'just a woman'. I suppose Aragorn was what she wanted to be - free, battling, high and of grat royalty.

[Stormcrow]

You just summed up Eowyn exactly. She did look up to him - because he thought of her and looked at her like no other. He looked at her as a brave fighter, a person who deserves to do what she feels is right, a woman who is an individual, with her own thoughts and feelings. That is why she felt for him.

[Arwen Evenstar]

I think maybe Aragorn responded a bit too much in the movies. In the book, he treated her like a child.

[Elfdaughter]

I wouldn't say he treated her like a child. I think Aragorn rsponded well in the film.

[Arwen Evenstar]

Maybe not like a child, but as nothing special in his heart. He did see her better than other men did.

[Stormcrow]

Yes he did, and that is apart of good old Aragorn's personality. :) He saw her as an equal. And she respected him for it.

[Arwen Evenstar]

He's humble in a kind of way, I suppose.

[Eowyn]

Alright we've drifted slightly here people! Back to whether PJ should have changed it to Arwen at the ford or not. ;) thanks.

Personally I think for the sake of the movie it made sense. So many people are introduced during the film that introducing yet another elf who doesn't appear again would have confused people even more.

[angelica83]

Agree with Eowyn!:grin:

[Stormcrow]

I am happy she was in that scene because it made sense later on, not too far off I might add. Although, I suppose people would have been terribly confused at that point. She just sort of appeared, but it would have made sense soon.

[Arwen Evenstar]

Why would people be confused?

[Eowyn]

Well I think it was a great way to introduce the elves. The way PJ did it she seemed unearthly and powerful which is a great way to see the elves.

Arwen people would be confused because there were so many characters introduced during the film. Introducing yet another would only have added to the confusion. My friends struggle to remember the names of the fellowship and they've seen all three. Infact during TTT they asked me which one Boromir was and I nearly cried into my popcorn. :rolleyes:

[Stormcrow]

Arwen people would be confused because there were so many characters introduced during the film. Introducing yet another would only have added to the confusion. My friends struggle to remember the names of the fellowship and they've seen all three. Infact during TTT they asked me which one Boromir was and I nearly cried into my popcorn. :rolleyes:

Well said, Eowyn! How could they not know who Boromir was! lol Oh well, you are exactly right.

[Eowyn]

I couldn't believe it myself lol especially when it was at the point during the film where they were talking about how he had died. lol

anyway back to flight to the ford I remember disliking the change but I came to realise it works for the film and was a necessary change.

[Arwen Evenstar]

Why did you think it was necessary, Eowyn?

I liked it because firstly, I quite like Arwen, and I think it was a great introduction to her, and I did see a bit of attraction between her and Aragorn when she said, "I do not fear them."

[Stormcrow]

I think it was absolutely neccessary, I agree with Eowyn. It made more sense, what with Arwen having a bigger role in the movie and what not. I loved it. The way she used the water spirits to attack, it made more sense. I thought it was better than the book version.

[Arwen Evenstar]

I would be confused if Elrond and Gandalf did it. I mean, how would they know if it's the right moment. In the movies, Arwen seemed much more stronger and all that.

[Stormcrow]

Yes, but Elrond and Gandalf doing it makes sense too. Elrond has the gift of foresight. And Gandalf is a wizard. But Arwen doing it was much better.

[Eowyn]

Arwen it was a necessary change purely for the number of characters in the book. One of the things that makes the books so tricksy to read is the number of characters you are introduced to. The film cut Glorfindel out since he doesn't play a role later on in the books and added Arwen in because if they didn't then Aragorn looks like
1) he chooses to marry some wimpy elf and
2) he decides to marry someone who maybe had two lines about her in the whole book. Obviously her character needed expanding, Glorfindel needed cutting and it was a logical jump for Arwen to take his place.

[Stormcrow]

Arwen it was a necessary change purely for the number of characters in the book. One of the things that makes the books so tricksy to read is the number of characters you are introduced to. The film cut Glorfindel out since he doesn't play a role later on in the books and added Arwen in because if they didn't then Aragorn looks like
1) he chooses to marry some wimpy elf and
2) he decides to marry someone who maybe had two lines about her in the whole book. Obviously her character needed expanding, Glorfindel needed cutting and it was a logical jump for Arwen to take his place.

That was brilliantly said, Eowyn! I couldn't have said it better if I had planned it days ago. :grin: You are totally right about all of that, Eowyn, and you just opened my eyes a lot more on this situation.

[Arwen Evenstar]

Great explanation, Eowyn! I totally agree, though I'm sure she had more than two lines. It certainly showed us Aragorn picked a stupid spoilt elf who sewed all day over a warrior princess.

[angelica83]

Arwen, I think you meant Arwen wasn't a stupid and spoiled elf who sewed all day. I disagree that book-Arwen was like that at all. She was wise, gifted in the elven arts, noble and a daughter who loves her father dearly.

[Arwen Evenstar]

Wel, obviously, that was what I truly meant because I like Arwen. I think I misnderstoof you, do you mean she was like what I said?

[Eowyn]

Great explanation, Eowyn! I totally agree, though I'm sure she had more than two lines. It certainly showed us Aragorn picked a stupid spoilt elf who sewed all day over a warrior princess.
Probably but I tended to skim read the bits where she was mentioned :p plus I haven't read it for a few years.

[Stormcrow]

Yes, Arwen is not in any way 'stupid' at all. She is a beautiful elven daughter with skills in the art of elven magic. She is a brilliant character in both book and movie. I love Arwen. :)

[Arwen Evenstar]

I like both Arwens. The first book where she was nobel, high, beautiful princess who sacrificed her immortality and the movie Arwen, very romantic, a pure goddess and I suppose pretty strong too.

[Stormcrow]

They were both just different sides of Arwen. My favourite bit in Flight to the Ford was definitely when she crossed the river and summoned the spirits of loudwater to wash away the wraiths. :)

[Arwen Evenstar]

I loved that bit, it was amazing!

[Stormcrow]

It was, wasn't it! I think I like Arwen doing it more that the way it was in the book. :)

[Eowyn]

Nah I liked the book version, partly because it showed Frodo as a stronger character and partly becasue the idea of Gandalf and Elrond stood around flooding seemed rather amusing lol

[Arwen Evenstar]

In the books, I couldn't really see the difference between a normal Frodo and a stabbed Frodo, he just seemed to act as normal, which really confused me.

[Eowyn]

No there was a difference. I think you have to read them and realise he's injured. My imagination just played it as him being injured but still strong enough to go on :huh:

[Stormcrow]

After being stabbed through the shoulder by a Morgul blade would be rather severe, though. I think PJ just made it seem to have much more effect on him in the movie for the whole Arwen adaption, in order to give her the part in the movie, which I preferred.

[Arwen Evenstar]

In the books, it didn't give me the impression that he was severely hurt, I preffered the movie way of doing it.

[Eowyn]

Yes it does, he's out of his mind most of the time and sleeping the rest :huh: but this is discussion for the movie and not the book :p

[Arwen Evenstar]

Yes it does, he's out of his mind most of the time and sleeping the rest :huh: but this is discussion for the movie and not the book :p

:) lol

We're just comparing it. :grin:

[Eowyn]

:) fair enough I suppose I was jumping the gun a bit.

so what did everyone think of the stunt doubles work. I have forgotten the name of th elady who doubed for Arwen but she was fantastic in my opinion. The horse was beautiful, wel all the horses they used were but they looked so elegant and the white horses were so graceful, very fitting.

[Arwen Evenstar]

:) fair enough I suppose I was jumping the gun a bit.

so what did everyone think of the stunt doubles work. I have forgotten the name of th elady who doubed for Arwen but she was fantastic in my opinion. The horse was beautiful, wel all the horses they used were but they looked so elegant and the white horses were so graceful, very fitting.

What do you mean exactly, Eowyn?

[Eowyn]

Well what was your opinion of Arwen's stunt double? Everyone discusses the character but they always neglect the stunt doubles :( I feel sorry for them so I thought we could discuss our favourite bit. Which bit did you think would be trickiest? riding through the ford, dodging through those tress or somehow all of them riding together in perfect formation along the plains lol very impresive :)

[Stormcrow]

I think them all riding together in perfect formation would have been rather hard, but the stunt double did an excellent job! She was a truly amazing rider! I think also, Eowyn, that she deserves to be recognized for it, as do all of their stunt doubles.

[Arwen Evenstar]

The stunt double was amazing, the ride was pretty realistic. The horse was beautiful, my second favourite after the one who played Shadowfax.

[Stormcrow]

Yes, the rider who rode Shadowfax would be very skilled! No reins! :grin: I also think Ian should be commended for those scenes in which he had to ride Shadowfax, he did a brilliant job.

[Arwen Evenstar]

It was very realistic, though when Arwen rode Asfaloth, Liv wasn't really riding it.

[Stormcrow]

For certain scene captures she probably would have been, for the closer shots. Or was that just a prop she was riding. I am talking about the scene in which Arwen had her face cut on the outsticking branch.

[Eowyn]

I suspect that shot may have been filmed curtesey of the phoney pony :p

[Stormcrow]

Yes, I think you are right. lol

[Arwen Evenstar]

For certain scene captures she probably would have been, for the closer shots. Or was that just a prop she was riding. I am talking about the scene in which Arwen had her face cut on the outsticking branch.


They said on a website that it was meant to happen. lol

[Stormcrow]

Uh, who said on what website? I don't understand what you are talking about. :huh:

[Arwen Evenstar]

Uh, who said on what website? I don't understand what you are talking about. :huh:

Well, on the Council of Elrond, they had quizzes, and one of them was about FOTR, and they said which of these wasn't an accident, and the answer was Arwen scratching her cheek on a branch.

[Stormcrow]

Well yeah, I never said that it was not ment to happen, I was just talking about the scene in which she does get her face cut, I was referring to that because I was asking about the horse she was riding in that scene. I always knew the face cuttage was planned.

[Amithrellas]

Given that Liv was on the "phoney pony", I think the branch lashing across her face was meant to tie her into the scene a bit more (long shot vs. close up) :huh:

[Stormcrow]

Yeah, I thought that it was actually really effective. It looked great in the scene and showed Arwen as more of a tough fighter/warrior princess. It portrayed her incredibly positively, and I really think it ultimately worked very effectively and meshed in with the scene really well.

[Arwen Evenstar]

Yeah, I thought that it was actually really effective. It looked great in the scene and showed Arwen as more of a tough fighter/warrior princess. It portrayed her incredibly positively, and I really think it ultimately worked very effectively and meshed in with the scene really well.

I agree, it made her looks a bit tougher about not caring for her face scratch, well, she was meant to save Frodo while running away from Ringwraiths.

[Stormcrow]

Yes, that is exactly what I mean, Arwen. ;) I think it is the same with her at Bruinen. :)

[Arwen Evenstar]

I agree (I seem to almost agree with you for everything!).

[Stormcrow]

lol

Arwen at Bruinen was very corageous and daring. She was savage and prepared. She showed true warrior essence in that scene and I wish we got to see more of it.

[Arwen Evenstar]

I really wish that Tolkien wrote more about her, but I think the way he perceived elves was that the noble maidens like Arwen had courage and strength in the inside, and were mentally strong rather than physical.

[Lady Galadriel]

I really wish that Tolkien wrote more about her, but I think the way he perceived elves was that the noble maidens like Arwen had courage and strength in the inside, and were mentally strong rather than physical.

In Morgoth's Ring, Tolkien said that female elves who had not yet borne children were equal in strength with the elven men. Therefore, Arwen and Legolas were strong alike. :grin:

Oh, and Liv was not the only one who was on a phony horse. According to Lady Arwen, in the commentaries, Wenham and Otto were also on phony horses.

[Stormcrow]

In Morgoth's Ring, Tolkien said that female elves who had not yet borne children were equal in strength with the elven men. Therefore, Arwen and Legolas were strong alike. :grin:

Wow, that is pretty cool to know. Arwen is as strong as Legolas. Now I am really wishing I had seen Arwen fighting in the movies. It would have been great to see Arwen destroying orcs. However, I think that it all flows together great and including Arwen fighting may have disrupted the casual flow of the movie, but it would have been awesome, nonetheless.

[Arwen Evenstar]

It would have been awesome! I never read Morgoth's Ring, I'm still waiting for The Treason of Isengard to come out. Arwen had not yet borne children so she was strong. But I suppose she was valued greatly and they didn't want to lose her as they lost Luthien, and took care of her greatly.

[Daughter of Feanor]

Under the strength of Elven women, did Tolkien mean physical or mental strength? I think that for Elves they were equally important.

[Stormcrow]

I think perhaps it was a blend of both, but am leaning towards physical. The way he put it sounds as though he meant strength pysically, not mentally. And considering all elven women whould be equal in intelligence elven men and that Tolkein was no man of discrimination to anyone, let alone the characters of his own creation, I am gonna stick with physical, I think. ;)

[Periantari Andruil]

but can't...

Daniel Timmons of his essay about "Frodo on Film" (from the book about Essays on Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings) says it best on what demeaning and underestimating and totally dissolving of Frodo's strength and resilience that this Arwen saving Frodo scene had from the movies:

Daniel Timmons says it the best in what crimes were done in altering the character of Frodo especially in this scene:

The scene at the Ford of Rivendell may be the worst of Jackson's alterations of Tolkien's text. One can sympathize with his desire to expand the role of Arwen. But this is one of the most important moments in the book, the instance that confirms for Gandalf-- and tHE reader--that Frodo is the one to bear the Ring.

Even though Frodo is exhausted, wounded, and slipping into the Ringwraith world, he manages to reist the temptation to evil. ... Jackson denies Frodo any role in his rescue from tHE RingwraitHs. [by inserting darn Arwen to rescuing him]


more thoughts and maybe in depth 30 page reason why the movie version totally is unacceptable for me, please email me:

periantari@hotmail.com

And remember, i have nothing agaist Arwen, but Arwen in this theme in relation to downgrading Frodo's strenght and defiance in FRODO'S last stand.

:frodo:

That's all. Please email me more...i would love to talk to you via email instead of continuing venting here. :)

[Stormcrow]

Well, I personally think without such a change, the audience still got the very same point through the entire trilogy about Frodo being the one to bear the burden, and thus PJ made the change.