Feanor was Nuts!

[Finrod Felagund]

Was the Greatest Smith to ever walk Middle Earth a bit touched in the head or was he just a jackass?
I think I've heard somewhere that the line between insanity and genius is razor thin. It seemed to me that after he created the Sils, he started to loose it and after They were stolen and his father was murdered he went off the deep end taking the his sons and most of the Noldor with him.
Anyone else feel this way or am I the one who needs the therapy?

[Lady Ashley]

i agree. He needed some mental help.

[Mirkgirl]

He was neither. There isn't anything abnormal in his reactions. He was exceptional, he made something exceptional, it is his. And I'll be worried if he wasn't attached to it, nothing even close to it was/is going to be ever made.
He wanted freedom, place where he can be a king of his folks without having Valar around him, the most normal thing in the world. A powerful king to want to rule alone is one of the constant events in the history, for example. All he needed was an occasion.
But the occasion that came was more than he could bear and act calm. Loosing the Silmarills and his father in one day was too much and he acted hasty... he would have done most of the things anyway, but if he had time to prepare (and think) maybe the kinslaying could have been prevented.
I thinks his reactions were pretty normal for a great man in such situation... but then again there are many who question my own sanity. :p

[Gwaihir]

Feanor was the most special of his kind, and there never was another like him. I don't think he was crazy. He was... well.. exceptional, and maybe weird to the others. His Silmarils became more precious to him than anything, in a way like the Ring, except that it's not evil. Too bad they were stolen and he and his sons had to take that stupid oath. There could have been a better use for Feanor.

[Tar-Ancalimë]

ah, but mirky.... perfectly normal reactions... only what did they lead to? wanting freedom, away from the valar, but then you said it... he loses his calm.... which in turn made him psycho. (oh yes.... you are insane, but Feanor is by far more insane :p)

exceptional? exceptionally gifted, perhaps... but mostly, imho, exceptionally mad!

[Mirkgirl]

One thing is to be insane and have no idea about the reality, your actions or the consequences of them, another thing is to be so angry at the moment that you can't act calm. If that's your definition of great insanity, we live in the elite madhouse of the Universe.

[Finrod Felagund]

Normal Reactions? God help us if Bush or somone else in a position of true power reacts that normally.

He lost it. Cursed a few Gods, Killed a few cousisns, Burned a few ships, standed a few more cousins, charged a few miles ahead of his army and got killed in the process. Perfectly normal? Somebody had lost his grip on reality and the rest of the Noldor paid for it.

[Mirkgirl]

I said exceptional ;)

It was all Melkor's fault tho... he did the whole thing... Feanor was strong and impulsive... that was why he was great... bad combination when there's a Dark Lord around... he lost control true... that doesnt make him nuts.

[Tar-Ancalimë]

it was so not 'all melkor's fault' :rolleyes: sure melkor provided a stimulus for the action, but the action was all feanor's fault

aye, he lost control... that does make him nuts in my definition... often those who are mad have simply 'lost control' and not been able to regain it.

[Bess the Bard]

In true Freudian fashion, let us examine his childhood. His mother dies when he's just a baby. Worse, some people make it out to be his fault...he saps all the will to live right out of her. Then he is an extraordinarily gifted child adored by his father, made out to be someone truly set apart. But his father up and marries someone else and betrays him by having more children. Rivals for his father's affection, rivals for the power and kingship Feanor regards as his natural right.

The inevitable tragic stage is set, way back when he was a child. All the tendency to go off the deep end is apparent before Melkor is even unchained or the Silmarils made.

[Tar-Palantir]

I think that when we get very angry we get hasty, that effect counts with the elves, but they don't forget their anger so easely!

[Huan the Hound]

A nutter that one, cracked shell and all! :o

And I'll never go for the "devil made me do it" rubbish. pfbbt
He was very selfish in my opinion, never learned to share as a kid :( ;)

[Finrod Felagund]

I can't believe I writing this but... Tar-Ancalime...my sentiments exactly:p

[Tar-Ancalimë]

aww cmon im not that bad...;)

i have always disliked Feanor and heaped a lot of blame for the fate of the Noldor on his head.... his sons perhaps are slightly less to blame but i dislike them just as much... imo the ones that went over the helcaraxe (or whatever the heck its called) are far above those who followed feanor... their fates shouldve been different... but who asked me, im no vala...

[Finrod Felagund]

Me too,
Maedhros and Maglor almost repented, but the rest were a bunch of punks.

Turin is the human paralell, I believe. Profoundly gifted (by human standards) yet let emotions rather than wisdom rule too much of his life. His folly and council caused the ruin of many.

Turin and Feanor....pfbbt

[Tar-Palantir]

Seems like noone likes Fëanor.

[Ithielnor]

I voted 2. Had he had his mother to raise him and hug him and understand him I think things might have been a little different. But he was nuts.

[Tar-Ancalimë]

hmm I actually like Turin quite a lot. he was overly arrogant and hot headed, but unlike with feanor, i can find sympathy... lots of it... for Turin... poor guy... plus he was basically nice... and he wasnt mad... he never destroyed his own race....
if i was there he wouldnt have been short of hugs ;) :p lol

so who voted 3? cmon try to justify that :rolleyes: lol

[Mirkgirl]

You mean I haven't already? :p

[Lalaith]

I think I may be standing alone here but... Fëanor is one of my favourite characters!
I don't have a copy of the SIlmarillion to hand but I will try to argue my case!

I do not think that he was insane. He was committed to his craft to the point of obsession. The death of his father was a contributing factor to his later actions and Melkor's attempts to create discord among the Elves stirred up some fiery emotions within him.
He was rash - and as soon as he uttered the Oath, he was bound to it. Yes, it was a foolish and dangerous Oath to take but he could not turn from his path. His fate had been taken out of his own hands.
He was the greatest of the Noldor - when he lead the Noldor into exile, the Valar mourned over the kin slaying and the destruction of the Trees, but they were most especially grieved by the marring of Fëanor. He was the most complete of the Elder Children of Iluvatar, and his downfall was Melkor's most evil act.

(but just for the record: I voted 2! And note: Fëanor does not feature in my MELI clone line up!!)

[Finrod Felagund]

Obsession and passion are no excuse for MURDER. I don't care what the hell he created or how gifted he was, he led his people to kill their kin and he helped. If Einstien had gone on a killing spree and caused WWII would you people just say " he was brilliant, he should be forgiven" ?!?!?!? Give me a break!

Forgive the rant, I'm done now

[Evenstar]

I guess Feanor did make some mistakes... Everyone makes mistakes though. But he shouldn't have abandoned Fingolfin and half the Noldor after the kinslaying. That was wrong.
Hey, he shouldn't even have done the kinslaying! I agree with Ithielnor, though, I think he would have been better if his mother was there for him.

[Lalaith]

Eek, Finrod!! :elfeek:

Just to clarify my own position a little - I am not saying he should have been forgiven at the drop of a hat!
Murder, kinslaying, burning of the boats - none of it can be justified, just explained slightly, by his rash temper and obsessive tendencies. In fact, that dude was never leaving Mandos! His like was never to be seen again in Arda.

Sorry - just wanted to stick up for the..erm...special Elf! :blush:

But each to his/her own!!!

[Rumil]

As a lay person I think Feanor was a couple of arrows short of a quiver if you get my meaning. The dividing line between genius (which he was undoubtedly) and insanity is very thin. However, i think Feanor wasn't a dribbling maniac - more an obsessive and a sociopath. Feanor has very little moral sense - he doesn't seem to think he does anything wrong, he is absolutely convinced of the validity of his own actions. He is persuasive, functions almost 'normally' around people but shows no remorse for his brutalities... this at leasst suggests a disordered personality if not insanity. As for missing his hugs from Mum ... that argument doesn't quite work. Not every unhappy child turns into a war criminal.

Strangely enough I enjoy the character of Feanor. I suppose on the whole I find the flawed/evil/dangerous characters more interesting than the virtuous, perfect ones. Turin is a great example he makes Tuor look sooooooo dull! (IMO of course)

[Elven Beauty]

Feanor was not nuts!

[Rumil]

Sorry Samwise.. but that is not what you call stable well adjusted behavior IMO!!:)

[Tar-Ancalimë]

hmm well I agree with you there.... but I still like the theory of needing a hug.... plus I adore Turin... he's my favorite first age character... I love reading about him... not so Feanor... I don't quite know where the line is for me, but I dislike Feanor and love Turin :huh:

[Finrod Felagund]

I wish I had said it that way Rumil

[Elven Beauty]

Well I personally think Feanor was great. I always have a tendancy to go for the misunderstood character.. IE SMEAGOL..

[Rumil]

Yeh samwise, as i said above, i really enjoy the character of Feanor (and Smeagol who you must admit is nuttier than peanut brittle). Great literary characters tend to have great flaws - Macbeth, Othello, Hamlet etc. Perfect = uninteresting in my book. Like Tar says look at Turin, he makes loads of mistakes and has serious flaws in his character. IMO it makes him all the better.

[Beleg Strongbow]

Even though I believe Feanor to be rash, I do have this to say in his defence...
Let us look at the effect the Silmarils had on some of the others involved in their tale. Even though there was no other power than the light of the trees in these gems, the desire for them is almost as corrupt as that of the One Ring. It is almost as if there is something more at work here, although we know better than that. Many wished them for their own, Elves & Dwarves alike and would commit murder to possess them. Neither is Feanor alone in this as his sons stood by him as the oath was sworn. Whether it is from fear or faith, Tolkien did not really delve into the psyche of each of the brothers, although we did have an idea of the ones who would have repented of the oath had they not felt bound to it.

One would also feel that the desire for these gems may have been lessened had Ungoliant not destroyed the trees. The elves would have preferred to remain in bliss in the Undying Lands and beheld the splendour of the light of the trees untouched by the evil that was to destroy them.

So there....

[Rumil]

Consider some of the descriptions of Feanor:

Upon hearing the death of his father:

"the madness of his rage and grief"

"Fierce and fell were his words... and hearing them the Noldor were stirred to madness"

"Then Feanor laughed as one fey" (the OED gives 'disordered in mind' for fey)

It would seem therefore that Tolkien is describing Feanor in terms of a madness, comparing Feanor's behaviour to that of somebody disordered in mind!

Nutty as peanut brittle.

So there, there ;)

[Tar-Palantir]

Well, if you had known and loved your father for a couple of thousand years you would want to avenge his death too.
But I think that Feanor loved his Father more than we can imagine.

[Beleg Strongbow]

Nice answer there, Rumil. You have also brought attention to the fact that maybe the Noldor were all a little loopy, not just Feanor!!!

Originally posted by Rumil
"Fierce and fell were his words... and hearing them the Noldor were stirred to madness"



Maybe it should be Fey-nor!! :naughty:

[Rumil]

Originally posted by Beleg Strongbow
Maybe it should be Fey-nor!! :naughty:

lol indeed...sums him up perfectly:thumbs:

[Voroturiön]

Brilliant yes. Nuts - abso-freakin-lutly! :batty:
IMNSHO, there is no justification for the Kinslaying and the curse of the Noldor! verymad Forsaking one's gods - bad, bad, bad. He destroyed everything in his path. Greed does that to people. I think he acted like a spoiled brat stuck in a petulant adolesence.
His sons were absolute rubbish. pfbbt
There is a reason that his line died out.

[Mirkgirl]

Here I come again to play the Feanor's advocate :naughty:
Originally posted by Voroturi§èn
IMNSHO, there is no justification for the Kinslaying and the curse of the Noldor! verymad Forsaking one's gods - bad, bad, bad.

Gods? Yeah they were starting to play as Gods there which was the problem asthey weren't Gods:
The Silmarillion, Chapter 1, The Beginning of Days[/i]
For Elves and Men are the Children of Il¨²vatar; and since they understood not fully that theme by which the Children entered into the Music, none of the Ainur dared to add anything to their fashion. For which reason the Valar are to these kindreds rather their elders and their chieftains than their masters; and if ever in their dealings with Elves and Men the Ainur have endeavoured to force them when they would not be guided, seldom has this turned to good, howsoever good the intent.
The Valar did not possess the Silmarili, they belonged to Feanor. Manwe subdued to his anger and acted like a God - everything belongs to me - but it didn't. And what we see from Tolkien's work the aim do not justifies the means (ultimate example - Gollum, if the aim to have the threat which Gollum was destroyed justified the murder, most probably the end wouldn't be good, except for Sauron); the aim to have the light of the trees back do not justify the theft, yes it was a theft.

[Beleg Strongbow]

Quite right there Mirky. Only Illuvatar has access to past, present and future and who knows the end of all things.:thumbs:

Also, the Silmarils captured the light of the trees, not the trees themselves, so, yes, it's wrong for anybody to take from Feanor what is rightfully his. However, this doesn't disprove that Feanor was a nutbag, which is the basis of this thread I believe. I still think he was an over-zealous, neurotic, paranoid, homicidal elf, and that's enough to stick him in the gah-gah class. One could almost call him as an idiot savante, as he was so gifted with his hands, but was socially unacceptable. Is that a little extreme?:mmmm: :mmmm:

[Finrod Felagund]

maybe a little too extreme, he was socially adept enough to convince the Noldor to join his rebellion... but your description before that comment is dead on

[ImDaMom]

I'm not quite sure that the silmarils were NOT evil. Look at the results of all who coveted them. Feanor became obsessed, much as Sauron becomes obsessed with the ring. Most of Saurons will and power was in the ring, and a goodly amount of Feanor's talent and abilities were used to create the silmarils. Maybe the evil wasn't equal, but the desire to posess was pretty close. Almost as a foreshadowing of the ring story.

[Mirkgirl]

hmmm in a way they are more a parallel story - not only the evil power of an object can cause evil, but even the good beauty, if lusted more than anything can cause even greater evil. However I think that the connection between the three Silmarils and the three elven rings, which have to, in a way, compenste the evil that the Silmarils caused... there was a thread about it before

[Rumil]

Originally posted by Finrod Felagund
maybe a little too extreme, he was socially adept enough to convince the Noldor to join his rebellion...

Insane people aren't all dribbling idiots - psychopaths tend to be very charming, persuasive, plausible, driven beings. If we don't think 'nuts' as in droolong loony but more dangerous unbalanced genius (more in the Hannibal Lecter line) then could Feanor be a candidate?

[Finrod Felagund]

Everytime I read the word "loony" I hear one of the Monty Python characters saying it... "I'm Invincible!...You're a Loony"
I know, I know, OTS but I think I have pretty well stated that I believe that Feanor was a couple of slices short of a loaf...

[ImDaMom]

Hey Finrod...a few slices short of a loaf...I think that perfectly describes Feanor. Maybe....(lets get into Tolkein speak...a few silmarils short of a crown....)what else do you call an unrealistic goal and an unreachable conclusion?

[Tirithel]

I agree with Huan. At the root of most evils there is usually jealousy or greed, and if Feanor (or even GULP Melkor) had been free of those things, there wouldn't be much of a story.

[Gil Galad]

i recon he was just an arrogant little pup, who wanted attention.



oh yeh and a little crazy

[Prince Faramir]

I din´t know what option to choose. Feanor is great, he´s just a rebel and indomit heart , wiser than the rest, and that´s why he´s was that way. yeah, and misunderstood, but again, a flaming heart, and both things together are dangerous. That situation took him out of the edge.

[Silvorn]

Hm, Feanor crazy? Maybe. I think a lot of it has to do with the corruption and lies of Melkor though, so you can't place all the blame on Feanor. Very smart guy though; makes me think of what he could have done had he not gone a little . . . excentric. However, he kind of let his passion rule his logic and that gets everybody into trouble.

So, in a way, both the first two choices in the poll are applicable to Feanor. I think he went a little too far with the Kinslaying though, in my opinion, it wasn't really all that necessary and he acted way too rash. And the Oath taking eventually just created problems for all the Noldor somewhere down the road.

[Gil Galad]

he was quite easily corrupted by morgoth tho, this must lie in his prid i believe. so i think he was over proud

[Finrod Felagund]

I read a fanfic on just this subject that has shown Feanor in a different light. Feanor needed the Noldor bound to him, so when things got bad in ME they would tough it out instead of whining about wanting to go home. The Kinslaying did that, and burning the ships at Losgar enraged Fingolfin and Indis's side and hardened thier reason to come to ME.
The more I think about it, the more I think he was perfectly sane, but so ruthless that most nice, law abiding folk would rather doubt his sanity than believe that a rational mind is capable of planning and executing such heinous machinations.

Crazy? maybe not
Ruthlessness of a kind that common folk like us find akin to evil, maybe so

[Mirkgirl]

What can I say... may Eru bless the writer of this fanfic notworthy

[Gil Galad]

that is a good point and i like it, he wasnt mad just a little bit evil:wicked:

[Silvorn]

Yes, very well said, Finrod.

[Tar-Palantír]

Well, I still hold to my point of Fëanor being a little (or much) misunderstood.

He was after all the greatest of the Eldar to ever have lived, and that could be the reason why he acted so strangly when his father was murdered and The Silmarils stolen.
I agree with Mirky on this one. Fëanor was sane, but I think that his father was too dear to him, after all his mother died when he was only an infant and then his father married another woman, to have other children.

[Gwaihir]

I agree on that. Feanor wasn't just a nut. He was the greatest of all the Eldar... had he been brought up correctly and in a better time, he would have done so much good to everyone.

[Finrod Felagund]

I have to disagree Gwaihir. I don't believe it had anything to do with his upbringing, his father loved him above all else. I think his nature to always strive at chanllenges carried over into making him wish to discard the unending peace of Valinor. He seems to be somewhat "Mannish" in his discontent in being in a place where everything was perfect. Once he created the Silmarils, the greatest piece of craftsmanship EVER, even the Valar conceded the fact that even they could not do better, what else is there. He knew that he would never be able to better them, this may have fueled his discontent with Valinor and turned his gaze eastward where there were new challenges and the ability to set things according to his order, not living by another's leave as it were. Morgoth apparently fed this fire and when Morgoth killed Feanor's father and stole the Sils, gave Feanor an excuse to rebel and leave Valinor. Now the Kinslaying and Burning of the Ships was not necessarily in his plan but I do not think they were impulsive moves either.
He was an "Ends justifies the Means" kind of person
I do not think he was crazy, just fallen.

I know I have done nearly a 180 on my opinion but like most of the Prof's writings, there are several levels to his stories. I think the Prof was trying to show us the dangers of unrestrained genius and one of the deadlier sins: Pride

[Beleg Strongbow]

Well said Finrod.....History is replete with unrestrained genius; people who would stop at nothing to achieve a higher level of knowledge or power. One could say that Hitler may have been "Unrestrained Genius" in what he wanted to do to achieve greatness for his country and race. However, in the end, his visions were clouded by hatred and loathing and drove the planet to war.

Having said that, I would not compare Feanor to Hitler at all. Feanor had no desire to annihilate an entire race of people and his main desire was driven by his quest to retrieve the Silmarils, but I can see that sometimes a little madness helps to motivate an eager mind.

[Mirkgirl]

Now... I wouldn't say that Hitler was a genius at the first place... he just was convincing enough, crazy enough man at the right time and the right place...

But anyway let's go back to Feanor... End does justify the means at this case I believe... It was needed to go back to ME, as the Valar had forsaken their duties... the idea wasn't "let's make Arda... Valinor would be a good place where we can have endless peaceful fun and whoever doesn't agree with that, be it an elf or Melkor or Melcor's creation/ally can have fun in ME... ahh yeah and the dwarves... we just don't want them here, so they can make company to the Avari".... Manwe & co were beginning to feel way too powerful and self-satisfied... it was no wonder that Melkor and Ungoliant met no resistence (save for Finwe... heh), the Valar had became unwary and sure that Valinor is great and safe place... and who cares for the rest when we're having the trees and the fun.... they were punished for this and then decided to act like gods - "gimme the Silmarills they belong to me 'cause they and all belong to me"... they had no rights over the Silmarils... they belonged to Feanor. They used the "end justifies the means" trick first. The arrogant Ainur were the root of the whole thing and it took some fire in the blood to save ME.

Kinslaying... well if we actually look at it sober - they don't die... what's the whole fuss about...plus the Teleri chose some ships over their kin.... that in my book is no much different than wanting to keep the Silmarili for yourself and not give them away for everyone's sake... they were just as in love with their creations and as unwilling to share as him... and with a lot lesser reason.

The burning of ships... they never really followed him and he needed no snakes near him before the war against Melkor has started... he knew that they'll eventually get there and that eventually when all see what Melkor is up to will fight together against... but before that it was very likely to get into argues which will bring nothing good... plus knowing the ones after him "Hey let's bring the ships back to the Teleri... they're theirs... then maybe we'd think of following Feanor somehow... " wasn't very unlikely reaction

[Gwaihir]

~Originally posted by Finrod Felagund
I have to disagree Gwaihir. I don't believe it had anything to do with his upbringing, his father loved him above all else.
Yes, his father loved him greatly, even more than Indis, his second wife. But his upbringing did not have nothing to do with his later deeds. It says in the The Silm:
The wedding of his father was not pleasing to Feanor, and he had no great love for Indis, nor for Fingolfin and Finarfin, her sons. He lived apart from them, exploring the land of Aman, or busying himself with the knowledge and the crafts in which he delighted. In those unhappy things which later came to pass, and in which Feanor was the leader, many saw the effect of this breach within the house of Finwe, judging that if Finwe had endured his loss and been content with the fathering of his mighty son, the courses of Feanor would have been otherwise, and great evil might have been prevented; for the sorrow and the strife in the house of Finwe is graven in the memory of the Noldorin Elves.

[David D]

Just because the elves can be brought back does not stop the kinslaying being a horrendous act. To murder someone is a dreadful deed and made worse if it is done for material possesions. I do though agree that the Teleri should not have fought over their ships and they were not wholly blameless.

The burning of the ships was another atrocious act. I have sympathy with him in that Fingolfin would not have accepted his leadership, but that is no excuse to leave them stranded at Helaxe.

I love Feanor and he was the most powerful of all the Children of Eru, but he was corrupted by Morgoth and due to this he made many bad descisions. All of the Noldor were under the influence of Morgoth and acted badly. Feanor is the saddest case, becausehe could have don so much good for the world. As Gandalf put it what else could the 'unimaginable hand of Feanor' created.

[LuthienT]

It just sad, Feanor was great at craftsmenship, it a great Elf and well known and in one day loses his father and the pride and Joy of his life

[Narsil's weilder]

Like a lot of crazy mad men who were misunderstood, Feanor had a lot of right ideas but he went about it the wrong way. Killing his kin and betraying his half-brother was not the right way to get your revenge. He was right to distrust Melkor and he had many great virtues but he just couldn't cut it for a genuine hero. But I can imagine having your great works of your life time stolen and your father slain at the same time would through anyone off balance. I admire him but no one is without faults.

[LuthienT]

I agree! I think (sorry for Letures) that Feanor is a tragic hero, he was vulernable to mistakes, he made mistakes and suffered. And the Greek belief that Vengance Condemns us, Forgiveness Redeems us, is true in Feanors case because Feanor died and he wasn't able to forgive the Valar or Melkor.... And he blamed the Valar for his troubles(somewhat)

[Eomund]

He was a little nuts but the Oath was a foolishness of his own.

[Finrod Felagund]

David D and those that agree with holding the Teleri at fault,
How can you hold the Teleri to blame. Their cousins came to them and asked for help in what they percieved as a crime (do you think the Valar would have been very happy with the Teleri for actively helping the Noldor?) and when they said no, the Noldor killed them for it. This is some what over simplified and an order of magnitude understated but, it is like someone asking you for your antique car that you have worked your whole life lovingly restoring, to go commit a crime with you driving.
To further the point, should the American Indians just given up all their lands because the USA wanted them, should the Belgians/French/Polish/Russians/English/etc. said to the Germans : "sure come on in, kill us, take our homes, rape our daughters and wives, etc" just because the Germans wanted room to expand?

"It's mine"
"Well I want it"
"No, I really need it"
"So?"
"O K , here you go I guess I can get along with out my sole source of livelyhood and sustenance"
:hmppf:

How can you blame anyone for fighting someone who wants to take their stuff?

[Mirkgirl]

Yeah yeah yeah... if your cousin was involved in some trouble with powerful people and had to leave town would you give him your precious car? I like to think I would.

Plus you have an army of Noldor wanting your ships... it's easy enough to say they made them give them... the Teleri didn't care for what the Valar would say, they just were as in love with their ships as Feanor was with the Silms... elves weren't that pure creatures at all... which is not that bad as it makes them more real.

[David D]

I think that the host of Feanor have most of the blame on thier shoulders. They brutally killed thier own kin to rob them of their ships. It was a horrific act and because of it they got their comeuppance by the fact that they all died bar Galadriel, who played no part in the kinslaying.

I disagree with you though Mirkgirl about the Teleri not caring about the Valar. If they only cared about the ships then they would have simply ferried the Noldor accross and then returned back with thier ships. The fact that they were not willin to do this though it would have saved thier ships shows they held the Valar in high regard.

However, the Teleri deserve some blame for killing thier own kin to protect thier ships. The Teleri should not have loved thier ships so much than they were prepared to kill for it.

For example if you had a friend that had gone crazy and wanted your car to go and kill a serial killer. Even after you gave him advise not to do it, he still insisted to go after your car. Now you try and restrain him, but he pulls out a knife. By chance you have a knife on you as well. Is it worth it to risk your friend's life for the car. If you decide to fight him and one of you dies, then I believe that you bare small part of the responsibility for the death.

If the Teleri were not thought to be have some blame, why were they not released immediately from the halls of Mandos.

[Finrod Felagund]

I am afraid the car metaphor was not strong enough. In fact forget it, I think the American Indian Metaphor is closer

by that token the Noldor shouldn't have fought them for it

I'll never blame someone for defending what is theirs, within reason of course

In any case...
Don't ask me for my car...
:p

[Mirkgirl]

notes down not to ask when she needs FF's car :p

Now... the Indians were to loose their land and the Teleri their ships... true they couldnt build so great ones (or so they thought), but they could build other ships. Which is about the same. It's still a ship.

[Eomund]

but those ships were built with the help of Össe and someone else. They couldnt get them to help again possibly

[Gwaihir]

Yes, the ships that were taken and burnt in the end by the Noldor were the best ships that ever were. It was a very regrettable thing that they were destroyed.

I think that both the Noldor and the Teleri were at fault in the kinslaying... possibly the Noldor were more responsible, since they were the ones who had started it.

[Eomund]

Telers wouldwe won that kinslaying but the Second Company came and destroyed them.

[Gil Galad]

i cannot beleive this, peopl eare trying to defend the Noldor for there actions at the Kinslaying, and trying to lay blame on the Teleri

Feanor had no right to take those ships, because in doing that he done to the Teleri what morgoth done to the Noldor. and so he fell from all grace and righteousness, and became as low as his enemy.

as FF has said you cannot blame soemone for defending there own. when some one comes to take what is yours and they are bearing arms, then you have the right to resist them with arms. a common hief is nothing more then that whether he's a sneak or he has an army to call on. and when you do something which cannot be undone then you fall beyond redeption, save by the intervention of the almighty.

the Teleri lived in a prety desolate area, there main source of food was the Sea, which they used the ther ships to get, so is a farmer to allow people to burn his crops and carry of his animals, were the natives of the man lands which europeans have pillaged supposed to hand over there goods because of the greed of therre fellow men?

also once the Noldor attepmted to rob Teleri they no longer deserved the tittle of kin

[Mirkgirl]

Same thing the Valar had no right to have Feanor's Silmarils... they started the whole "gimme your most precious, cause I need it". And, frankly, Feanors goal to free ME from Melkor was a lot more honourable and important than any trees. I think the Valar, the Noldor and the Teleri have exactly the same share in the whole thing. If any of them stoped for a minute to think what they're doing the result would have been less tragic.

[David D]

I am not trying to defend the Noldor and think that they hold the majority of the blame. I also agree with what the Teleri did when they cast the Noldor into the sea. However, when the Noldor got their swords out I don't agree with the choice they made to kill or be killed over ships.

I would rather loose my possesions to a thief than kill him. All in all if you there is a scale of morality I would place the Teleir near the bottom and the Noldor at the top.

As for the Valar they never demanded that Feanor hand over the Silmarills. They asked him for them and he refused. After this they did not try and force hm. One must then remember that the light of the Silmarills came from the two trees in the beginning anyway and Feanor just imprisoned their light.

Feanor's goal was never ever to over throw Morgoth for the good of Middle Earth. He wished to revenge his father, regain the Silmarills and establish a kingdom. All these were infact very selfish desires and not in my opinion as honourable as the Edain or later the Vanyar, who truly gave up their llives for the deposition of Morgoth.

[Gil Galad]

Mirky the Valar did stop and think of wot to do and because of that Feanor led his people into exile as he thought the thinkin time of the Valar was nothing more then a sad lament at there loss and that they would do nothing.

and i aggree in part wi th David D, Feanor was selfish, or rather he became selfish, after his fall from grace(the son of the King, greatest craftsman ever<save Aule>)and he even wished his sons to die for his cause, as he seen thangordrim and knew that it could not be overthrown by the power of the Elves or any less then the Valar, and still made them reswear there oath of vengence

[Eomund]

He was the most selfish elf ever lived

[Mithrandir]

More dire need of a Prozac than any Elf in ME

[Eomund]

And Beleriand and to be honest in the whole world.

[Evenstar]

actually I think Eol was more selfish than Feanor.

[Eomund]

Eol? That darkness elf you mean, he was okay.

[Gwaihir]

Feanor wasn't that selfish... Morgoth had influenced his mind, even though he despised him. He also loved the Silmarils greatly, and as you know those gems have the power to make people want to possess them forever.

[Eomund]

yesss, but Feanor acted like a shellfish.

[Gil Galad]

yes a Shellfish, wait why did he need the boats then? im confused

[Mirkgirl]

cause he was a lazy Shellfish I guess :p

[Eomund]

Truly lazy, he couldwe swimmed to Helcaräxe.

[Beleg Strongbow]

Too cold the waters of the Helcaräxe, even for a Shellfish. That was the trouble with Feanor.....he was very shellfish...

[Eomund]

Yes but does shellfish'es are afraid of cold? I dont think so...

[Lady Galadriel]

LOL ...these recent comments are funny.

Feanor was indeed selfish. However, I like the way he stood up to Melkor in Valinor. I guess I have mixed feelings about him. He was very irrational and driven by impulse and fire. There must have been some kind of darkness in him since he hated his brothers even though his father apparently loved him most and everyone knew that. As to the kinslaying, he fell in my esteem after that.

Its interesting to learn that Galadriel hated Feanor. It is said that he desired to have a strand of her golden hair and she refused it. She saw the darkness in him. She fled with him because she desired power over her own realm. It is also said that she defended the Teleri, her maternal kin, when the Noldor fought with them. After the slaying, it is said that ever more her heart burned with desire to follow Feanor with her anger to whatever lands he might come and to thwart him in all ways that she could.

But Galadriel is said to be the greatest of the Noldor, except Feanor maybe, though she was wiser than him, and her wisdom increased with the long years. I found that in the story of Galadriel and Celeborn in Unfinished Tales of Numenor and Middle Earth. My point is, she was acknowledged to be if not his equal in power, just a little less and also wiser, and she was NOT NUTS or SELFISH.

[Beleg Strongbow]

I have no mixed feelings about him whatsoever. He was a madman. As bad as, if not worse than Melkor. For he tried to cloak his anger and madness in a stupid oath that would destroy so many. He would be gainsaid on nothing.

I also feel for Galadriel. It must have pained her to know that one such as Feanor was her kinsman, so's to speak. You're right there LG, I agree with you that she was certainly the most powerful of the Noldor aside from Feanor. It shows in her through all the Ages. I also feel that she was able to communicate on all levels with all races. Not something any old elf can do. Also, can I say here that, next to her, Celeborn looks like a ninny.

[Catz]

yeah he was mad..but i can still feel pity for him
he could have been the greatest of his people, instead he ended up being reviled by all those he wanted most to impress
insanity isnt something that you can just decide not to, be is the thing
:catz:

[Eomund]

Youre right. He couldwe been the greatest elf ever lived....

And he still was great after the fall of noldors...

[Mirkgirl]

He WAS the greatest. Well maybe one of the two greatest with Galadriel (not saying who was greater. they're not exactly comparable but deff were the greatest).

It takes more guts to make something which was needed to be made and be considered the black sheep from your kin and the generations to come. Don't tell me that the Noldor were all happy in Valinor and it was Feanor who put a spell on them. They WANTED to go... all they needed was a leader who could say it out loud... and EVEN Feanor wouldn't have done it on a normal day... it took to loose the Silms and his father and Valinor to loose its light to make EVEN him to say out loud that he wants out... It's hard to leave one paradise even when you wish for it and know it is needed.

Being a leader MEANS to be selfish and your "self" to want the SAME thing as the ones you lead. Didn't Galadriel want to go? Didn't she go, even tho she hated him? Why? Because it was the RIGHT thing to do, even if it wasn't the best of ways.

The Valar had forsaken ME. They were having their parties in Valinor, letting Melkor walk around, even tho he was poisoning the minds and if Manwe didn't see and hear all the weapons being made it wasn't because he needed glasses, but because he ALREADY had the PINK glasses on and thought the world was great... and errr some elves decided to leave in ME... idiots who cares for them.... what he actually needed was a shrink as his mania for grandness had gotten completely out of hand. He was no god. He had NO right over Feanor's creations. It;s like if I own a wood, someone paints it and it becomes the best landscape painting in the world. And the painting belongs to me, cause the wood is mine and if it wasn't for my wood there'd be no painting. Makes sense?

Then the Teleri decide to die instead of giving up their ships. It was recently discussed and this post is already getting way too long so I better stop.

As to the burning of the sheeps. Galadriel and some others fought against Feanor at the kinslaying. The others who didn't were sorry for that already. Sorry sweeties, but if you play for one team you play for it. Would you take someone who just before some seconds tried to fight against you? They hated him. If he was to send the ships for them, a second kinslaying was to take place. Morgoth was going to have a good laugh and eventually sweep whoever is left.

He was flame. It took flame to do what he did. The problem with flames is that it can hardly be stoped once started. And it's way of doing things is burning. Quite effective, tho not always the smartest way to handle things.

Just one more thing... growing as the only one on the bloody island not having a mother is not the nicest of childhoods. Esp as your father has remarried and your half-brothers HAVE mother around them. It's normal not to feel too good about them. All Tolkien's races aren't flawless... and that's the good thing about them. The elves were just as bad as humans most of the times, they just have more time to learn their lessons.

Phew... I'm sorry everyone who read this all... I'm in ranting mode ;)

[David D]

Mikgirl I agee with you to some extent. The Valar should never have taken the elves to Valinor and Tolkien implies this himself, this act cause many problems. Feanor merely expressed the opinions of most of the Noldor including Galadriel. As Mirkgirl mentioned Feanor had the worst childhood that any elf had ever endured and this helped clowd his mind.One thing that people need to remember is that nobody has loved their father like Feanor did. None of the Noldor would have experience anything near the pain that Feanor felt at the murder Finwe. I wonder how Beren would have reacted at the death of Luthien, after all when the Noldor appeared to be destroyed Fingolfin acted liked a maniac as well.

Okay the discussion who are the greatest among the elves was not exactly on topic... so I've split it and you can find it here (http://warofthering.net/forums/vbulletin225/upload/showthread.php?s=&postid=310673#post310673). Now this thread can go back to Feanor's (in)sanity. :p

[Lady Galadriel]

You guys, I understand what you are saying but I did not get the impression that Feanor's childhood was terrible. Yes his mother was absent from his life but it seemed as though his father worshipped him. As a matter of fact, I thought his father spoilt him hence the reason why he felt the world should bend to his will.

It seemed to me that Feanor was possessed some kind of darkness. He hated his brothers even though he had his father's love. Regarding Galadriel's leaving, Manwe knew her heart's desire although she never voiced it. He knew that she learned everything already that the Valar was willing to teach the firstborn and she yearned for the knowledge she could gain in M/E. Manwe also knew that she longed to govern her own realm. When Feanor revolted, Galadriel had already been thinking of asking the Valar's leave to travel to M/E. However, after Feanor's revolt she knew that the Valar would not consent in light of recent events and she took the opportunity to leave with the other Noldor even though she hated Feanor.

I really believe Feanor was just an irrational, obsessive man. I can understand how Fingolfin became crazed and rushed to battle Morgoth. That is a "in the heat of the moment" response. I dont suppose we can say that Feanor has been "in the heat of the moment" for his entire waking adult life.

[Mirkgirl]

Yes, but imagine being the only one without a mother in the whole world. It's not only "I miss having a mother" but also "why only I don't have a mother"... I agree for the spoiling part tho, but it is also not a happy childhood. Having a father who worships you is not quite very happy or healthy just as having a father not caring for you.

So, the rumours that all the Noldor have fallen are "in the heat of the moment", but the death of your father, who is your only parent and you love him like noone loved his father and the theft of your finest creations, your pride and joy, which you were just made to give to the Valar, who just had a party while this happened and who let Melkor walk around free is not?

As to his quarels with his brothers... not too nice but family relations are nasty things, esp in such complicated issues

[Lady Galadriel]

Mirkgirl, I can see that you are very passionate about Feanor. I am not marginalizing his lack of a happy childhood. I am just saying by connecting the dots it seems to me as if he had some kind of darkness in him. His own mother's spirit left her body after giving birth to him.

Also, there are many individuals who have both parents and still had an unhappy childhood. It does not mean that if his mother was alive he would have a great childhood. As to the "in the heat of the moment thingy" I merely said that I understand Fingolfin's irrational behavior as being due to an overwhelming sense of loss. Feanor on the other hand has progressively been on a dark path. Are we suppose to feel sorry for him that he had a sorrowful childhood even when he is an adult and can change that around? Shouldnt he have some kind of responsibility for his actions?

Anyway, I understand your stance.

[Gwaihir]

Galadriel was second in might, after Feanor. Or at least it says so in the Unfinished Tales.

[Lady Galadriel]

The Unfinished Tales says, and I quote:

"Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Feanor maybe, though she ws wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years."

I got that quote from "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn" in The Unfinished Tales of Numenor and Middle Earth.

[David D]

Just like to say that might has nothing to do with greatnest.

Feanor did not cause his mother's death due to any darkness on his character. That would first mean that Feanor was born evil, which would go against everything that Tolkien wrote. What caused his mother to die was that he took s much power out of her. When elves gave birth to the childre it seems that it affected their fea. That's why they rarely had many children. Feanor was so powerful though that his mother became weary of the world.
Feanor and the rest of the Noldor were targeted by Morgoth. His lies poisoned their minds and consequently they suffered greatly.

[Lady Galadriel]

Okay David D. Indeed I was in error when I linked his mother's spirit deprivation with his birth. I understood that it took all her strength to bare Feanor. Thats a testimony to his unusualness. However, I still believe he has some darkness in him. I do not mean darkness like Morgoth/Sauron, but I mean like darkness as referring to say, perhaps, one of the seven deadly sins. That kind of darkness or "failing." Whatever you want to call it.

I do not think Morgoth influence of Feanor was that significant. Feanor defied Morgoth's designs before Morgoth can take hold. I just think Feanor was blind to reason because of his desire to possess the Silmarils again.

[Gil Galad]

Mirky, Feanor was probably not the only Elf to have lost there Mother or indeed both of there parents, as a number of Elves stayed in ME where many a nast thing wandered around, but unlike them ,he lived in the bliss of Valinor, they lived in huts in a scary forest.he should hav e been grateful for what he had, and he should not have been p/oed with his dad, or rathere his brothers because his father wanted companionship and a more kids.

i dont hink there was any innate "darkness" in him, he was just over zealous(perhaps) his ambitions boiled over, his love was too great, even his skill may have made him into thew "crazy" personm he became. but u cant put it all down to that, because it is said that his mind cooled before the attack on the havens of the Teleri.oh and who said that the Teleri "chose to die rather then give there ships up" that is ubsurd, if someone defends what is theres is it there fault if they fall in the attempt

oh yeh one other thing, about the painting analogy, its good but it leaves out one quite major thing, if you paint a wood, you jusat paint a picture, when Feanor created the Silmarils he trapped the light from the trees within them, he also learned his skills from the Valar.

[Mirkgirl]

Well he was born in Valinor, he knew only Valinor so Valinor was his world. True that there were many orphan elves in ME, but in Valinor there were none other. I don't think that any f the elves who were born in Valinor realised what actually was happening in ME, so I don't think that Feanor ever thought about the existence of other motherless elves in ME.

Well in the same way you "trap" the beauty of the wood, you trap the way the sunshine touches the leaves. It's a higher art but still it did not harm the object - it just trapped one part of what it gave away freely - its light. The same way the skillful artist traps the beauty of the wood which otherwise would leave only in the memories of the people. The light, the beauty is already given to everyone. If you have the skill to preserve it, it belongs to you, unless you decide otherwise.

The Valar called the elves, the Valar decided to teach them new skills. It was their choice. They cannot expect anything but respect from their apprentices - their works belong to them.

[David D]

Feanor was not just motherless, he was the only ever recorded elf to have a stepmum. The marriage of his father to Indis meant that Miriel could never return. So Feanor was the only elf that knew he would never see his mother in the world again. The elves in middle earth, migt have been temporarily seperated from their parents, but Feanor's seperation was thought to be permanent. That in my opinion is worse than any other childhood.

[Gil Galad]

i take your points, and im not trying to make little of his pains, but he had allot that others did not, he had more of his fathers love then his two brothers, even though they were as much there fathers sons as he was. he should have been grateful for what he had

[Catz]

but only Feanor can tell you what it was like to be Feanor
besides, he was brilliant...........and the thing with that is that it tends to the obessive..........brilliant people ARE brilliant because they can concentrate on one thing to the total exclusion of anything else. they also tend to remember slights, and that tends to drive them
i think that whether you believe it was his background or a fault in him, he was a tortured soul, wanting tthe respect and admiration of others and succeeding only in driving them away
i feel sorry for him
:catz:

[Finrod Felagund]

I still say he was just ruthless.
I wrote about this earlier and the more I think about it, it makes sense.
If he doesn't kill the Teleri and sever the ties with Valinor, then some of the less driven Noldor begin to whine and pine for Valinor when their tea and strumpets ( ;))don't appear on thier plates like magic, and if he doesn't strand Fingolfin and co, he invites more descension amoung the Noldor. He forces Fingolfin and Co. to "cowboy up" and come to ME with a purpose in their hearts, not just blindly following a hesitant leader. Feanor knows that the House of Indis will arrive with fire in their hearts and he can direct that fire at Morgoth and then deal with the fall out later. Rather Machiavellan.
Crazy like a fox.
:fight:

[Gil Galad]

i have thought about it that way FF, quite a brilliant tactician, and very focused if thats what he done. also he may have known that Fingolfin and co would not follow him and thats why he rushed headlong against the Balrogs and fell in the battle????

[Finrod Felagund]

I think his wrath got the better of him and probably a little overconfidence to boot. The Balrogs were definitely the bane of many a mighty Elf. Glorfindel, Ecthelion, Fingon, Feanor, No telling how many in Gondolin fell to them. Although many Balrogs fell in Gondolin, there is a discussion about if the Balrogs in Gondolin were of the same stature of those that were written later. I can't imagine that Tuor slew 5 of the beasts that Gandalf or Feanor faced. The Fall of Gondolin was one of the 1st of the Prof's writings of ME. He even said in one of his letters that the number of Balrogs was no more than seven even though, in the FOG, he wrote that they numbered in the thousands. But that is for another thread...