Great Swords from History

[TrueSwordsman]

Arms of Valor, Ltd. has just added a new sword based on a sword used by Brian Boru, who was high king of Ireland around the 1000's. The sword is massive (58-1/2 inches long). The handle is long enough for 4 hands!

Though not a Lord of the Rings item, I feel it has a place here because Tolkien drew inspiration from the heroes of old when he wrote his books. Plus, the strength to use this sword recalls some of the great heroes of middle-earth like Turin or Beren.

http://armsofvalour.com/miva/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=AOVL&Product_Code=IP-070&Category_Code=V

:ring:

[azimaith]

You know, i'm wary of sites that put forth tag lines like battle ready, its usually nothing more than a gimick. I also balk at when they describe being massive as good, size is not all that matters with swords. However, the thing that really broke the camels back (possibly literally) is its ungodly weight, 7 pounds? what is that, a lead core? At most that blade should not weigh more than 3.5 (and thats pushing it.)

In short, all the wrong points are emphasized, its too heavy primarily. It really can't be taken as an accurate depiction of what the heros of old would use because they could get a sword at half that weight or less of the same size. Something smells funny, here, they didn't list the steel type, they don't mention the tang, they address the ends of the cross guard as quillions (thats a renaissance term)

Now don't take this personally, but I could't recomend this blade to someone looking for historical accuracy.

[Gil Galad]

you are forgetting Azimaith that this is a replica of an actually sword, so its size and weight are unavoidable(if in fact they are not underemphasised, as iv heard say that Boru's sword was infact a good foot longer and somewhat heavier then the one represented here)

and it was a sword that a hero of old used and true scarce few men of today could wield such a thing efectively but that doesnt take away from its historic accuracy.

iv seen the exact replica (the original having been stolen soem years back) of it that Boru's descandants, the O'Briens of Thomond still use for ceremony and its massive and very heavy(altho i was young when i saw and held it)

[azimaith]

Actually saying its a replica means nothing, people also call their swords replicas of excalibur, there are a dozen different "replica's of William Wallace's sword that look a dozen different ways.

If I compare swords of the iron age, in Ireland you can see through artifact swords, not replica's they weigh 2.5-3 for most long swords and grow to about 5 pound max unless they're decorative. Truth is, a 7 pound sword is often one thats poorly made, you don't need a ultra heavy blade, its less agile. The extra power it provides doesn't matter either, being able to cut someone in half isn't any more useful than being able to cut someones head in half, you only need to kill somoeone once over.

Much of the 1000's also used shields with swords, two handed swords were practically non existant. Furthermore, the blunted tip, something found in viking swords, reinforces the idea that this sword was meant to be pre-mail. (And pre-mail negated alot of the need for two handed swords.)

Also, brass is far too soft for use in pommel of cross guard material most of the time and is commonly used as a cost saving measure in modern blades, a good sword, especially one that is meant to be famous, should be made of historically accurate material, brass will not work here.

And they don't tell me what type of steel they used, all steel is carbon steel, steel is an alloy of carbon and iron, if they're talking about 440 (Which I worry they are) then this sword is absolutely not historical.

So in short, the sales gimmicks of "battle ready" and the term High carbon steel bring me doubts of it furthered by possible anachronism's i'll have to research. As I said before, saying its a replica doesn't mean anything, sites out there claim to have replica's of every sword and replica's of the same persons sword look completely different.

[Gil Galad]

I do agree with some of your points, i just pulled this from the O'Brein(Boru's decsendants) clan website http://www.obrienclan.com/boru/sword.htm , some details about the sword

The Brian Boru Sword. 66 inches (5 feet, 6 inches) in length.
It is a two handed sword dating from the 10th century. It is a lewing sword, designed to cut off as many heads as possible in one fell swoop.

Legend says that Brian Boru cut off 100 Viking heads at the Battle of Limerick in 978 AD (before breakfast).

The Pummel at the end of the hilt is a bronze, gold plated sphere 1-3/4" spherical and has a gemstone set into it. The sphere has four holes at 90 degrees to each other rather like a divers helmut. The gem can be seen inside the four portholes

The rounded tip. This sword was used for swinging, not stabbing

and you can see from the website that the swords look quite similar atleast. the question about the steel is a good one and the brass pommel is disapointing. hope that site answers some of ur questions about the sword though

[TrueSwordsman]

Gil Galad has done some good research, and offers a far more educated opinion on the Boru Sword. The Arms of Valor, Ltd. replica is based on the one that was stolen from the Clan O'Brien. It is in fact about 8 inches shorter just due to the shear difficulty of making a sword 66 inches in length. Brass was chosen for the pommel for cost and the fact that it looks the same. Please use the link Gil Galad provided above, and you will see other than the size the swords are nearly identical. The blade made of 1060 high carbon spring steel, flexes, but is still stiff enough that it will not wobble like some other brands of long blades do. The weight is due to the great size, but do not think that it is on wieldy. With a four handed grip it is well balanced for the size, but still requires a strong arm to wield. How else would you get the power to strike off multiple heads?

[azimaith]

See, what I wish, is that I could see the original blade that was stolen. I'm glad to see they used good steel though bronze has always put me off. As for being unwieldy, Boru would need to be extremely strong to use this blade, its not impossible, but its nearly unheard of to find artifact swords that are not decorative in excess of 5 pounds.

As for striking off multiple heads, sometimes legends do grow with time.

So the Brian Boru sword appears to be authentic and aside from a couple of anachronisms its a good find. I just wish they didn't taint the sword with all the ridiculous sales gimmicks.

[Nilion Elentano]

Some points you stated Azimaith can't be beaten.

Allow me to reinforce your points with a bit of information I always pass onto my friends, even tho now TrueSwordsman has posted that the steel used is 1060 High Carbon Steel.

Anyhow the following piece of information is good to keep at hand for those who are first time buyers.

... Metallurgical Analysis - Sales Ploys & Misleading Descriptions
We are no longer in an era of honor, so we must be very careful with what we buy. There is a huge slew of "battle-ready" swords that can be used for "re-enactments". They claim that these swords are made of generally really great steels, but keep in mind that many swords who come with such a description do not have very good heat-treating, and thus the resulting blades are but a shadow of the steel they are made from, and against someone with a well-made sword, you might not have a chance. In fact, your resulting sword might be no better than a stainless steel replica even though the original steel was superior!

Sales babble may throw you off, so I want you guys to make sure you're not getting misled in your shopping.

Catalogs and web pages feature swords using words like:

High Carbon Steel
High Carbon Spring Steel
Live Steel

These terms are all synonymous. All the various carbon steels are very similar. Some retailers have begun using the term, "high carbon stainless steel". The bottom line is that stainless steel is still stainless steel, and is inferior as a sword-blade steel because of the weakening effects of chromium. So it doesn't matter how much carbon you put into it, since adding carbon to a Hyundai doesn't make it a Ferrari! pfbbt

Enjoy it folks. :thumbs:

Azimaith, 3.5 lbs of weight is still quite a cumbersome weight, yes might work for accurately historical re-enacment but then again maybe the ones who were using the 3.5 lbs blades were the ones who got killed eh?

[azimaith]

Two handers can get to about that heavy. Most longswords weighed about 2.5 pounds. 3.5's were needed for many swords against armor. The risers could add quite a bit of weight. In truth, I don't need a sword that could lop off 20 heads in one blow because no enemy you fight will have 20 heads. You just need enough to cut to the bone (and consequently the arteries that are wrapped around them)

[Gil Galad]

but if you can't get through one head u cant cut into the next guy thats attcking you in the same stroke. i do take your point about people growing with there legends, but the battle for Limerick was historically recorded from several points of view, including some viking historians, and they all seem to have reference to a great Irish Warior weilding a mighty blade and cutting of many heads. and the sword itself was definitly used for combat and not just for decoration

[TrueSwordsman]

But as for me, I came here to conquer or die, and the enemy shall not boast that I fell by inglorious wounds." At this instant, Brodar, The Dane, with a small party, rushing in their despair towards a small wood near which Brian's tent was erected, resolved, in the madness of his desperate rage, to be avenged for the defeat of his countrymen by killing the king of Ireland. The aged but heroic Brian, seeing them rush into the tent, seized his great two-handed sword, and with one blow, cut off the legs of the first Dane that entered. Brodar, entering next, struck Brian on the back of his head with his axe; but in spite of the stunning wound, Brian, with all the might strength for which he was renowned, by a fortunate stroke, cut off the head of Broder, and killed the third Dane that attacked him; and then calmly resigned himself to death.

[azimaith]

i gather its one head at a time from that short story.

[Nilion Elentano]

Would be interesting to try that don't you think Azimaith? in any case, if it was battle ready wouldn't it make sense for such a sword to be wielded by a man of the size of Brian Boru? and not by us much genetically degenerated humans of the XXIst century? Dunno, just a thought :(

[azimaith]

Well were actually healthier and larger than medieval people. The thing is that you don't need a sword that can kill one person 10 times over, you only need enough to do it once. Thats why smaller swords that can cut to the artery are all most medieval soldiers needed. Truth is, the armor of that age hardly required such a massive sword, and in the confines of a massed battle it would be very very hard to wield. As for battle ready, thats just a gimmick, it doesn't actually mean anything, all swords should be battle ready. I would not be suprised however, to find that the sword was indeed Brian Boru's weapon but not his combat weapon. More of a ceremonial or a sign of stature rather than a practical combat weapon, however, just because its a sign of stature doesn't mean it can't chop off heads.

[Night Wolf]

the sword of brian boru i compare to the o-dachi...a very very long japanese sword. it was used, bet very little, they were made as status symbols and offerings to the gods...the islands of japan were made by the coral blade and anyone of importance would try to epitimise that sword with a large sword of magnificance.

my bet is Brian would have used a smaller blade or possibly an axe, the irish were known for there effective use of smaller combat axes.

[Gil Galad]

But it is recorded that he used this great sword in battle, in Limerick and then in his later conflicts in Leinster, il try and get a link or some historical stuf that backs this up, il be right back.......


oh yeh and Azaimaith is correct we are taller then the men of that age, but i do beleive we have goten soft, and Boru was a very large man for his time, probably about 5'10- 5'11 or so

[TrueSwordsman]

The Scottish used the Claymore to cut the legs out from under the English Knights' Horses.

Of course during the time frame of Brian Boru all combatants fought on foot, so not likely the use for his sword.

I still believe he would have used it in battle. Not only would it inspire his men, but also strike fear into the hearts of his enemies. A powerful blow could strike through the defense of the enemie, though not heavily armored they did have shields and chainmail.
The aged but heroic Brian, seeing them rush into the tent, seized his great two-handed sword, and with one blow, cut off the legs of the first Dane that entered.

[Night Wolf]

Originally posted by Gil Galad
But it is recorded that he used this great sword in battle, in Limerick and then in his later conflicts in Leinster, il try and get a link or some historical stuf that backs this up, il be right back.......

i'm not saying he didnt use it but like the japanese counter part it wasnt an everyday carry all weapon...the o-dachi was used much like the longer swords of europe, it was counter cavalry, very hard to make weapons that big with the raw materials they used.

as a side note chain mail does very little against any sword...the percussion of the blow causes a major slice anyway, its been tested using deer bodies...i have a full hauberk and i've been hit and it makes the bruising worse.

[TrueSwordsman]

Of course chainmail does not protect against impact, that is why a heavy gambeson and sometimes leather coat were worn under it.

But it did help protect the warrior, otherwise why have the added weight? The Vikings wore chainmail coats that went all the way to their knees. Thats going to weigh at least 55 - 65 pounds!

[azimaith]

Couple things. First, its Mail, not chain mail, there weren't multiple forms of the ring linked mail. Just a little twitch I have.

The swords of that size, the true two handers of the renaissance, didn't even appear until 500 years after Brian Boru, and these were made with full hand ricassos and 18+ inch handles. They were made for two reasons, to take the heads off of pikes and to reach enemies on horse back. Brian Boru's sword is the same size as these two handers and yet he weilds it against smaller and faster weaponry effectively? I doubt it. There isn't even a firm proof that Brian Boru used that sword in the story told there were many types of two handed swords available that were far easier to use. Many of those recording these battles elaborate to extoll the virtues of those written about, for Brian its strength.

As for two handed great sword, long swords are called, great swords, war swords, swords de guerre, and two handed swords. Most sword types had a myriad of names.

As for the vikings, the vikings didn't get hauberks until far later and the english I believe, developed them first. The Norse invasion already more or less finished by that time, right after the hauberk you started getting plate mail(not be confused with plate armor.)

[TrueSwordsman]

Roman soldiers that invaded Gaul under Julius Caesar in 39 AD (without looking up the exact date) wore "mail" (not to be confused with the stuff you get in your mailbox). Some historians actually believe that the Celts also developed a form of chainmail, but it appears the majority of historians think the Celts just took it off of dead Romans.

The Vikings had contact with Rome, and even sacked the capital; therefore it can be construed that they would have been exposed to warriors in mail. Also, small pieces of chainmail have been found in the mass graves of major battles all over Scandinavia. Brian Boru lived during the 1000’s, so the likelyhood of mail being worn by both sides would have been extremely likely.

Further, once again without looking up the exact account, when the Danes invaded northern England in 1066 shortly before William the Conqueror of Normandy invaded from the south; there is an account where the Danes did not have time or did not take the time to put on their armor, and were slaughtered fairly easily by the defending Saxons.

I do agree that the Sword claimed to be owned by Brian Boru may have grown is size with the years, but this is the sword that the Clan O'Brien claims was his.

[Gil Galad]

Trueswordsman,in the battles for Munster, Boru had a large enough contigent of horsemen,and so it is likely that others who had dealings with him would have copied (or perhaps were copied by) him. but thats just an aside.

Smaller weapons then this would be quicker but they would only be useful if you could get close enough to him to strike without , losing your head, and so in the hands of a skilled warrior a large balde can be the more effective choice

[azimaith]

Gil Gilad, quick note, shields were more or less a necessity, regardless of the size of Brian Boru's sword, it would not go through a shield unless it was very old or very damaged. Until plate mail came into being people were simply too exposed to go without a shield.

[Night Wolf]

Click here... (http://www.obrienclan.com/boru/sword.htm)

[Gil Galad]

Tell you what il go make a time machine and we can all go back and settle this once and for all.

[Night Wolf]

as a friend i know in dublin would say "this is bull s*** lets go get drunk" ;) sound words of advice...

...first round of guiness is on me :grin:

[azimaith]

WARNING!!!!!
Replicas of the Brian Boru sword are being sold at www.armsofvalor.com and www.imperialwepons.com . Neither of these two websites are authorized to sell a Brian Boru replica sword. Their specifications are not even close to those of the sword we have.

Thats what I thought, my primary argument was simply about the ridiculous weight at the Arms of Valor site.

[Nilion Elentano]

Originally posted by azimaith
Thats what I thought, my primary argument was simply about the ridiculous weight at the Arms of Valor site.


Ouch!!!!!!!!!!! that must have hurt:rolleyes:

One more thing , and I want to clarify this should stay a healthy discussion, but just for the sake of accurately correct historical references I have to state this TrueSwordsman, Mail according to the books of Marcus Aurelius and other Caesars who took part in the invasions of the British Isles and Gaulic Europe agree in the fact that Mail was taken and reproduced from the samples captured from their Celtic foes... and even tho Mail existed previously in other forms in Eastern Europe (but not in the European patterns and style) the European Mail can only be attributed to the different tribes of Celts and other germanic tribes. :thumbs:
Now someone prove me wrong, because if I'm I will have to sue Marcus Aurelius, lol.mecry

[Catz]

well that Marcus, you never know ;)
i think you have to be rather careful with "historical" weaponry, since so much mana (prestige) was invested in these items they did tend to grow somewhat in the telling..........and history as they say, is the winners story........other than that id say wolfie has the right idea ;) a pint is a damn good idea ;)
:catz:

[Gil Galad]

:beer: :beer: i aggree lets get the stout flowwing, did you all ahve a good St.Patricks day?

[TrueSwordsman]

I contacted Arms of Valor, Ltd. and they agree that they are not and do not intend on having the endorsement “authorization” of the O’Brien Clan. It is their creation of a sword that could have been wielded by one of the Greatest Irish Heroes of all time. The owner of AoV is actually very proud of his Irish heritage and only desires to show the power of the Irish Warrior in a sword that is not to large to hang in an averaged sized house (the claimed original is said to be over 66 inches long, try hanging that over your fireplace).

Now for my own personal thoughts, if someone can find a sword that is 58 inches long and can cut through a 2x4 with ease that weighs less than 7 pounds I would really like to see it.

[Night Wolf]

you obviously dont know John Lundemo ;)

sure old swords weighed a fair bit, but new technologies and new techniques have improved there design by ALOT!!! i cant say how mainly because i have shop privy information but there are newer methods to remove weight from longer blades but keep a good blade flex and temper. :)

*guzzles pint o mead* lol

[TrueSwordsman]

Is there a website to look at and buy his swords?

[Gil Galad]

put using new techniques would make the sword less historically accurate dont you think???? :beer: it is good mead tho

[Night Wolf]

to start with are the sword everyone is buying made from iron? often low quality depending on what region the sword was made....if not then its not accurate, its become a modern piece. is the hammer its forged from made of iron? if not then its not accurate...shall i continue? new techniques is what we have done since we evolved, stone then copper then bronze then iron then steel and now we are begginning to get into the really complicated alloys (but wont go into them, L6 is one alloy thats starting to be more popular among smiths but its relatively new to the open market and its a pain cause its only available in bar stock).

Johns site is www.odinblades.com and some of the swords on his site were made a while back so not his better work...i'm currently redesigning his site with his newer/better work.

This sword is (http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32010) one of his larger pieces...

Specs:
Overall Length: 59.25"
Blade Length: 41.5"
Blade Width
at Base: 3.75"
Blade Width
near Tip: 2.5"
POB: 5"
COP: 28"
Grip Length: 13.5"
Guard: 6" X 1.25"
Weight: 8lbs

now you will not find a sword of this size, and at such a low weight with the width of the blade as wide as it is. he is also working on another sword, blade length not including the tang is 63 inches...the current weight before his technique is applied is 9lbs and he'll be able to bring that down to 7 and a half because its not as wide (alot thinner) than the blade mentioned above.

as i've gathered most here try and speak fact but have to limited experience and handled not enough originals to have a valid point unless referencing specific swords with a reference that can be checked (such as a book with page number, or website that is credible...providing stuff like such and such said this doesnt provide the ability to cross reference ;)). i'm all for knowledge and growth of the mind but i see very little of that and mostly people holding fast with an opinion...

dont mean to sound like an *** but it helps no one if theres little to no fact thats able to be referenced, it only breeds more misconceptions...and the sword world has many of them. i'm an upcoming smith and metallurgist, i know the best and among them are John Lundemo (Odin Blades), Kevin Cashen (Cashen Blades), Howard Clark (Morgan Valley Forge) and Daniel Watson (Angel Sword)...these guys share information with me to become a better smith, and also allows me to help within reason others to learn...

...but i'm ranting so, bleh...

[TrueSwordsman]

The Brian Boru Sword from AoV is 58 inches long and weighs 7 pounds. Earlier in this post it was called a “ridiculous weight” for a sword, but you can see that it is actually spot on. Even if a new technique is used a sword of that size is not going to weigh much less and still be effective.

Night Wolf I do appreciate your insight in sword making. You are very lucky to have contact with some great weapon smiths.

[Catz]

there is no such thing as historical accuracy when it comes to making any item........you cannot reproduce as the Wolf has said, the condtions, tools or even often, the materials used
all crafts evolve over time.
ive been watching this discussion with interest, since this whole thing with "recreations" interests me, tho more from a cultural veiwpoint............i know a little about metalwork and weaponry, but not enough to say much about what has been said as far as accuracy goes, but it is interesting to see how strongly held some pov are ;), but then thats the same for anything isnt it ;)
and learning is what were all doing, if we know it or not ;)
so ill shut up now
carry on guys lol

[Eomund]

yes, i agree...you cannot remake the circumstances what were then when the sword was created...

[Night Wolf]

yes, i agree...you cannot remake the circumstances what were then when the sword was created...

well you can reproduce them, the japanese do it every day...everything is traditional, even the blocks of iron are cut from billets up to 300 years old.

point is unless its a traditional thing thats a part of a nation why would you want to? you can exceed the performance of a antique blade using modern steels 100 fold. I myself have seen a steel sword cut a jewellers anvil in half, they are only made from a soft steel but an iron blade wouldnt be able to take the pressure and snap.

I think too much emphasis from the elitist pigs in the sword world is spent arguing historical accuracy...if i made a historically accurate euro blade i dont think the customer would like the rough, scratched, uneven finish of a antique blade. only blades of nobility would be made flawless in every way because if he didnt it was the bladesmiths head on the chopping block for a lord or even kings sword failing.

[Eomund]

If they would be accurate and the client would not like 'em then why do they buy the swords.

[Night Wolf]

the point i was making is when a sword wasnt some toy that fanboys want to own and not use appropriately the blades were no where near the finish grade alot of custom swords are today. some were yes, but not from euro cultures who were constantly fighting, being defeated, being retaken over etc etc.

the design, weight, center of percussion (COP), point of balance (POB) and blade profile to get the same harmonics can be historical yes...but not many people want a sword with an ugly non-shiny finish, so smiths accustom to make money and sell their wares.

people do not buy historically accurate these days cause no one makes historically accurate swords...only historically accurate designed swords, big difference. Japanese Shinsakuto smiths are the only ones who make 100% traditional as mentioned, but thats more art than a weapon anyway. at a base order price of $30,000 for a katana from a top level japanese smith its not practical to buy for use...