Was Tolkien a Racist?

[Radagast]

When Tolkien’s trilogy The Lord of the Rings was published, people accused it of being discriminating and chauvinistic. Mainly because there were no black people in his trilogy. And also because the female characters were completely dominated by the male race.

Some people saw this as a disgrace and it was a big topic, especially because it was in the mid 50’s and racism was a big problem.

Tolkien was very disappointed, and he had a hard time understanding the accusations.

There is no doubt that when Tolkien grew up, boys had more power and authority than girls. He also joined various “small societies” where skilled males (and only males), would meet and discuss various things. These examples were pointed out to be so called “evidence” in accusations, that Tolkien was discriminating and chauvinistic.

In my humble opinion: We know that Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings as a mythology, that was supposed to have taken place in England, 7000 years ago. If you think about how dominating the male race has been all through history, why would it be any different 7000 years ago? I mean, it was not until the mid 1900-century, that women were allowed to vote. Imagine how it would have been, thousands of years ago...

Black people in Tolkien’s books. Think of it, there were no black people in England 7000 years ago. The only people you could think of, as black people in Tolkien’s books are the “dark skinned” men from the south. So wasn’t Tolkien just trying to be realistic?

I for one don’t think he was a racist. One of the messages with Tolkien’s books is in fact, understanding and tolerance shown in the two characters Legolas and Gimli.

What do you think?

(sorry if anyone finds my use of language offensive it is not my intent, please notify me if you think so..)

[LuthienT]

I say no. I think that Tolkien wrote it based the white male being more dominate and he wrote it based on the world during his time, a troubled world where white men ruled and look how much trouble there was and he put that into ME. He was trying to point out how much trouble this world was was in and put it into his books.

[Miriel Baggins]

I definitely don't think Tolkien was racist or chauvinistic or anything like that. Like you said, Rad, he was simply creating a very realistic world. But, Luthien T, I don't think I agree that Tolkien was expressly trying to say there was a huge problem with men being dominate over women. He was a Catholic, and as such, I'm pretty sure he believed (as I do) that men have an authoritative role in relationships between male and female. This doesn't mean men are better than women in any way at all, of course (you'll never catch me saying that :p ). He also lived in a time when women didn't go to war. I'm sure he would've thought it a very bad thing: as his good friend C.S. Lewis put it "Battles are ugly when women fight." But, anyways, I don't think that Tolkien was in the least discriminating, or even chauvinistic --- his books show a deep respect for differing cultures and "races" and also for women.

[Radagast]

Yes, Miriel..
Edith Tolkien (Tolkien's wife) also said (after the accusations) that she and Tolkien had a great relationship and she never felt repressed or "dominated".. but as you said, being that Tolkien was an "old school" catholic, therefor I am also pretty sure he believed that men have an authoritative role in relationships.

Regarding the racial thing...

One of Tolkiens "big" messages with his books, is (as I said before) understanding and tolerance.......... The story of Gimli and Legolas.... need I say more..

[LuthienT]

I agree, the relationship between Legolas and Gimli is very important to the story. Didn't Tolkien base the Lay of Luthien, the story of Beren and Luthien on the relationship between the relationship between his wife and him?
I have to say Tolkien has been acused of alot but what it comes down to is, the message it brings across all together, people coming together from different races to fight one main evil.

[Erwyn]

No, I don't think Tolkien was a racist. As this was a mythology, the story was based on myths from several cultures not just English. His incusion of Eowyn as a formidable foe was not simply a nod to the opposite sex but an understanding of women warriors in not just Celtic cultures but Viking as well. There were several women who stood above the rest as leaders and fearless warriors in the annuals of Celtic and Viking history.

And of course, we must remember his time frame. Long before the civil rights movement, but the women of England (and the US) had stepped outside their home making roles to particpate as they could in the war effort of WWII. I'm sure he met courageous women who nursed wounded men on the fields of WWI and how they faced the same perils as the men did without flinching. In many ways WWI was much more brutal than WWII.

No, Tolkien was very Catholic, but he was also a realist. What I've read in the biographies, he was a thoughtful quiet man who was unassuming and humble. I prefer to think he wrote with best intentions.

[Cuiel Rilwen]

In my opinion people who make such accusations haven't read the book thourroughly enough to understand it. All the issues mentioned above must have slipped by their narrow minds.

And dominated women? There is no such thing in the story. Ok so Eowyn went to battle secretly but that can hardly qualify as being dominated eh?

Even when describing the different peoples of ME, I find it hard to believe that he made his bad guys look dark and talk harsh out of discrimination. He was a linguist and went with what he thought sounded good for the good guys, and vice versa.

I swear I dunno why some poeple have to believe the worst about others all the time, weird, huh?

[Miriel Baggins]

Amen, Cuiel. notworthy Yeah, I think it's a shame how people are always looking out for chances to tear others down. :( But then there are, hopefully, always other people to lift them back up. :grin: Like us, in this case. :p

[Cuiel Rilwen]

Hear, hear...hehehe!lol

[Gwaihir]

No, I do not think Tolkien was a racist, either. Btw, haven't we had the same discussion some time before, in a thread started by Fatty?

[Radagast]

Im not sure, Gwaihir.. But this was first posted as an article on the main page, and I was told by Illu to post a link to a thread in here so you could discuss it.

If Tolkien was really "chauvinistic" Edith Tolkien would'nt have stuck with him since he was 17 years old. :)

[Cuiel Rilwen]

Originally posted by Gwaihir
No, I do not think Tolkien was a racist, either. Btw, haven't we had the same discussion some time before, in a thread started by Fatty?

It has been disgussed somewhere else but I don't remember where. There certainly is a disgussion in the silmarillion-thread over at books about the Tolkien- women. We are certain to do some repeating but that doesn't matter as long as people want to disguss it!

[Mirkgirl]

Okay it has been discussing, PA and I are discussing what to do with the thread, exactly because it's an essay thing and thus a special case. Don't worry no matter what the decision is no posts will be lost (:

As to the topic, no Tolkien wasn't racist, he was just an english guy writing english mythology, the dark skinned cannot possibly be a part of the tale. The reason why they are in the book really is that he wrote those parts while his son was at war somewhere in Africa. Dark men in crimson and gold were in his mind and appeared in his writings too.

As to the real racial conflict in the books, it's between elves and dwarves and the friendship of Legolas and Gimli and the relationship between Gimli and Galadriel deal with it.

[Mithrandir]

Yes I saw that rumor in another web-site and it is not true, sometimes stories not neccesarily have to include certain ethnic groups and/or sex and that doesnt make him either racist nor sexist is like everything is appropriate for the ocassion (well, sometimes) and thats just how he pictured it thats my opinion and Tolkien was never racist

[Mithrandir]

And talking about black people (no offense in how I put this word) as 'orcs' is a big sterio type, and thats just how Tolkien's imagination was and thats how he thought of it, putting the 'black men' as the bad one (orcs) and putting the 'white man' (Elves, men etc.) as the good guys; I think its very steritypical and ignorant to say that

And once more Tolkien was not in any way racist.

[Periantari Andruil]

And talking about black people (no offense in how I put this word) as 'orcs' is a big sterio type, and thats just how Tolkien's imagination was and thats how he thought of it, putting the 'black men' as the bad one (orcs) and putting the 'white man' (Elves, men etc.) as the good guys; I think its very steritypical and ignorant to say that

And once more Tolkien was not in any way racist.

isn't that a bit contradictory, MIthrandir? lol (or are you sarcastic?) ;)

i think basically it boils down to the fact that Tolkien was writing a mythology for England and therefore had the descriptions of the people as he did... i mean there are examples in which it does seem a bit to not PC but Tolkien was an old-fashioned guy with very Western notions... in terms of description..i think most people tend to associate dark and black with evil and light with good... mythologically that's how it is usually, in my opinion =)


__________________

[Cuiel Rilwen]

Oh but Tolkien had his good looking bad guys as well...Saruman for example! And dont forget that Sauron had a beautiful appearance in the elder days...ofcourse he knew that outer and inner beauty isn't always the same! In claiming the oposite one just shows that ones perception of it has been incredible shallow. And looking for things that simply aren't there!

[Mithrandir]

:rolleyes:
Sarcastic I guess lol :nono:

[Cuiel Rilwen]

Huh? Me?

[Mithrandir]

isn't that a bit contradictory, MIthrandir? lol (or are you sarcastic?) ;)

i think basically it boils down to the fact that Tolkien was writing a mythology for England and therefore had the descriptions of the people as he did... i mean there are examples in which it does seem a bit to not PC but Tolkien was an old-fashioned guy with very Western notions... in terms of description..i think most people tend to associate dark and black with evil and light with good... mythologically that's how it is usually, in my opinion =)


__________________

Any bells now?? lol :rolleyes:

[Mithrandir]

Wait, nevermind it wasnt you that said that lol :nono:

[Cuiel Rilwen]

haha right it wasn't...so naturally now I can hear the bells loud and clear! :D

[Periantari Andruil]

all right back to topic, folks ;)

I think "racist" is a very strong word to accuse someone of... i think one must look at the context and the situation in which the author is writing to understand and not misunderstand the reasons for the depicting what has been depicted to be good and bad.
I think the assertion that Tolkien was racist is a very crude and judgmental thing to say having no basis for the appreciation or respect for Tolkien's story

[Cuiel Rilwen]

Sorry :blush: Peri just a wee slip there! I totally agree, in fact, as being racist is the very extreme of being judgemental one could almost say that accusing someone of being that on such flimsy pretext is being racist!

Did that make sense? :p

[Thranduil]

Eh...I'm going to put it out there that I am African American and I'm a woman, but I don't think Tolkien was racist or sexist!
As it was stated before, women didn't have very much power back then. At least he showed that women did have potential by portraying Eowyn as a woman who was strong enough to fight. And the whole relationship between Legolas and Gimli was very important too, showing friendship between two different races. Aragorn and Arwen's relationship was also an interracial one. Just because they were the same color, it doesn't mean they were the same race. Unfortunately, that's the way people interpret it today.

-Thranduil, King of Mirkwood :rock:

[Gil Galad]

I aggree with you very much Tranduil (i Didnt realise u were female, it must have been the name) especially on the different race same colour thing, im Irish and i hate when peoiple think im english, and i know that there is very little race difference there, it really annoys me when people refer to Native Americans as one people when in fact they were(at the time fo there destruction) more diverse, in language culture and bloodlines, then europeans have ever been. but i diverse(is that even a word)

ok back to teh point. it is important to remember that the Dark Men form the South only went to the side of evil after the numenoreans came to them and some of them decame there kings. so in themselves they may well have been peace loving friendly chaps that would never follow or ally themselves with sauron.

and the men of the west were shown to do very evil things despite the fact that they got teachings from the Gods. so i think Tolkien showed that every race has the potential(even Hobbits, the chief etc) to do, or be used by, evil.

on the Female thing i think it was just teh society that Tolkien lived in that made him overlook women for the most part, it is said that the Dwarf women were very similar to Dwarf men, so wuldnt you think that atleast some Dwarf women would have won reknown for some defence they were forced to take part in. as for human women, they do get a fair enough shout at fame, with Eowyn in LotR and (oh whats her name, the one who took over one of the tribes of men after they were attackee and her father and brother killed) Haleth (thats it) . Elvish women never seem to be appreciated fully though, with Galadiriel being second to Celeborn, dispite teh fact she is the greater. Luthien i think may have been given more praise, and Arwen was nothing more then a prety lil thing while her father was the greatest lore master and her brothers great warriors

[Miriel Baggins]

Great thoughts, guys! I love hearing them.

About Tolkien being sexist. I personally think that, for the times, Tolkien was pretty liberal in his views of women. Throughout his history of Middle-earth, women are often wise and powerful and important. Look at Varda and Melian and Morwen (there's a lot about her in Unfinished Tales) and Luthien and the list goes on and on! These women surpassed many men in great deeds and wisdom. Although Tolkien was writing in the style of old lore, the women in his stories are very strong and prominent.
by Thranduil
At least he showed that women did have potential by portraying Eowyn as a woman who was strong enough to fight. But this is assuming that the ultimate ideal for both men and women is to be able to fight. Tolkien didn't believe that, and neither do I. (Remember, I'm a girl.) A woman's role in life is very different from a man's, though it takes no less strenghth or intelligence. In RotK, it's not until Eowyn is healed that she truly understands her place as a woman. And it's only then that she finds peace.
"Behold! the Sadow has departed! I will be a shieldmaiden no longer, nor vie with the great Riders, nor take joy only in the songs of slaying. I will be a healer, and love all things that grow and are not barren." This was closer to Tolkien's view of womanhood. And it's a position that demands respect, and that had his respect. That's how I see it.