What if: Eagles take Frodo to Slam Dunk the Ring [Archive]

Finrod Felagund

August 29th,2002, 05:20 PM

I'm inserting this from Most importantant Military Force:

Slam Dunk Theory:
If Gandalf was on such good terms with the Eagles, I would think he could have asked the little favor of taking Frodo to Mount Doom, Would have saved thousands of lives, a whole bunch of trouble and between Elrond, Gandalf, Aragorn, and Galadriel, I think they could have made a pretty good case to Thorondor. All Gandalf had to do is just pick up the nearest moth and give Thorondor a buzz. :grin:

G:" Thorondor, I need another favor"
T: " ANOTHER ONE, come on Olorin, do I have to keep pulling you out of trouble?"
G: " I know, I know, this is the last one... I promise"
T: " OK, what is it"
G: " Could you get one of your boys to take this little guy to Mordor so he can drop this little ring into Mount Doom and destroy Sauron's power forever?"
T: " Just one Hobbit, right?"
G: " Yep, Just one"
T: " Sure, But you owe me... AGAIN."
G: " Thanks guy, you're a world saver"
:thumbs:

This wouldn't have made much of a story but IMHO it is one of the major flaws to the LOR. Mopping up the baddies would have been much easier without their fear of Sauron and the Ringwraiths pushing them.....

This was an option that the Council of Elrond didn't think about. Maybe because they had never thought of the use of air power in a war.
I can just picture it now, Gandalf slapping himself in the forhead saying: "Why didn't I think of that earlier"

Could have set up another story... Balrog takes Sauron's place as chief Baddie and tries to take over ME from Moria hmmm...

I just like stirring things up.
Thoughts?

Bonos-Girl

August 30th,2002, 12:51 PM

i was thinking bout the eagle thing when i read lotr for the first time....but you're right, it wouldn't have been a very good story!!!

Pil

September 3rd,2002, 11:43 AM

lol neva mind...the thought is amusing

TheRingBearer

September 3rd,2002, 06:27 PM

They were useful enough in The Hobbit but you can just never get help when you need it these days lol

El Ravager

September 17th,2002, 08:07 PM

They could take Legolas along too, so he could should down and Nazgul on winged mounts who choose to follow.

Tar-Ancalimë

September 20th,2002, 10:28 PM

Actually I think Sauron wouldn't have ignored a bunch of eagles flying into his kingdom:

*The Eye is watching. The Council of Elrond happens. Gandalf contacts the Eagles. The crebain see them. They fly Frodo to Mordor. The Eye sees them. Ringwraiths fly after them. Frodo goes into Mount Doom with Ring. The Ringwraiths have seen them. They follow Frodo. End of Frodo. Sauron+Ring.*

Oh yes that's exactly what Tolkein should have written. I don't at all agree that it's a flaw to the story. I mean, even with Legolas shooting the Nazgul they still could have caught up with the Eagles and taken Frodo. Not a very good option.

Lady of Rohan

September 24th,2002, 10:46 PM

I think you have a very good point there Tar-Ancalime. After all Sauron wasn't dumb. And Saruman too would have intercepted them probably before they even reached Mordor.

Bonos-Girl

September 26th,2002, 02:20 PM

maybe but the eagles were very strong and powerful....if they knew they had to protect frodo and the ring with all they're strength then i think they would have succeeded

Tar-Ancalimë

September 27th,2002, 04:49 AM

I don't. "Sauron's forces are already moving...."

"His eye is fixed on Rivendel."

"But his spirit has lost none of its potency... the lord of Mordor sees all. His gaze pierces cloud, shadow, earth, and flesh."

"The hour is later than you think."

Sauron was one super powerful dude! Mordor is teeming with his servants. Frodo and Sam only got through by passing as orcs! How could they have done that in the air? And they would have to land sometime to get in Mount Doom. The Ringwraiths by the time they got to Mordor would have been in Mordor. No need even to try to recall them in time! And if the Council waited a bit for them to leave... they would be on flying steeds... it's a lose/lose situation there. And Sauron has more servants than just Nazgul or Orcs, don't forget!

"The enemy has many spies in his service: birds, beasts."

"Always remember Frodo, the ring is trying to get back to its master... it wants to be found...."
That alone could have betrayed them.

Finrod Felagund

September 27th,2002, 06:48 PM

There were more than 9 eagles, and they have demonstrated a willingness to enter a battle (Battle of 5 Armies) so they are not afraid to be in harms way. They could fly in much faster than Sauron could move his forces so there would be no ground troops waiting at Mt Doom. Speed would be the key to success. They came in and picked up Frodo and Sam pretty quick, why not fly them in in the first place?

Tar-Ancalimë

September 27th,2002, 10:09 PM

ummm... I do believe you forget how far it is to Mordor from Rivendel. Sauron wouldn't have ignored a whole ton of eagles setting out from Rivendel. Remember he had it pretty muchly surrounded, they had to sneak out.

They could not fly faster all that way than Sauron could move his orc troops who were already next to Mount Doom into Mount Doom... even assuming the eagles could beat the Nazgul (which they couldn't--OK so there are more than nine eagles they still are not more powerful than men armed with rings of power directed by Sauron) Frodo would never have gotten to Mount Doom. Sure Sauron's attention was focused on Gondor but he's not blind... for from it, he's the exact opposite. He so could have moved his troops there in time to stop them.

They picked them up so quickly because they had already accomplished their mission, ie Sauron and his ringwraiths were gone.

anyway Tolkien already thought of them as a fighting force in ME they were already on their way that's why they were so quick... they were already there...

Remember? At the end of "The Black Gate Opens" in RotK, everyone cries
"The Eagles are coming, the Eagles are coming!"

Tar-Ancalimë

September 27th,2002, 10:14 PM

sorry for making that so long, I hope someone bothers to read it all. I think I had a few good points among all that! :thums:

Orc

September 28th,2002, 12:00 AM

Take whatever space you feel you need to make your points. (And you did that quite well). We don't have any space constraints when it comes to trying to express your opinion.

:Orc:

Finrod Felagund

September 28th,2002, 12:10 AM

Enola Gay: 1 plane ended WWII, I do not think the Japanese invited it in
Doolittle's raid on Tokyo, not much real damage but they all got in and dropped bombs against a very formidable airforce and AA defense

Tar-Ancalimë

September 28th,2002, 04:10 AM

whatever!!

like those were parellel situations. they weren't at all, did they have tools to stop those guys like Sauron does the Eagles? no I don't believe so.

Thanks Orc!!! I'm glad you thought so, sometimes I am not coherent even to myself.

Finrod Felagund

September 30th,2002, 09:14 PM

Seems that manners have completly left the building.

Parallel no, similar, I think so, Doolittle's raid especially, the Japanes Airforce was at its height of power and lethality, Doolittle bombed TOKYO, the CAPITAL of the Japanese Empire. They had an AIR FORCE not just nine planes. Give me a break. Not Parallel, no Doolittle's Raid was against longer odds.
Here's another, any time a SF unit rescues a pilot. The enemy knows generally where the pilot is, knows we are coming for him and can put AA anywhere around him to shoot down the incoming aircraft plus move troops quickly to the area where the downed pilot is.
More?: Allies sirassault into Bagdad. The Bagdad was the most heavily defended city IN THE WORLD at the time and we lost almost no planes and the operation was an unadulterated success. We didn't get Saddam b/c we didn't know exactly where he was. BUT we did cut his communications (his method of command and control) and radar installations (Eyes and Ears). (This could get WOT real quick).

Frodo, Legolas, Glorfindel ( who chased off the Witchking earlier), Elrohir, Elladan (both Elf Lords), 4-5 more stouthearted Elven Bowmen ( who were imune to the fear of the ringwraiths) and Gandalf all on Eagles and you have an assault team that could be in Mordor in a week. 10-11 flying from Lorien would make it to Orodruin before Sauron could mount a proper defense.

Piece of Cake, War's over, and there would be much rejoicing and feasting on meats and cheeses and breakfast cereals and orangutans and fruit bats...

Finrod Felagund

September 30th,2002, 10:02 PM

got cut off by the 15 min. edit rule,
My plan continues:

at the pace of 15 mph , they could travel from Lorien to Orodruin in about 4 days (15 mph for 8 hrs a day). A daytime flight really low or really high over Dagorlad and the Brown lands would minimize the potential of being seen from the ground, the combination of Elven/Eagle eyesight would minimize being seen from the air. Unless Sauron has telepathic communicatioins between him and his non-wraith minions, surprise can be achieved. Sauron would be expecting something from Gondor, not from Dagorlad or the Brownlands. Flying further east, taking longer but coming from a direction that was probably unguarded would help even more.

Speed is what makes this plan workable

Whatever?
sounds a little more feasible than WALKING into Mordor

Tar-Ancalimë

September 30th,2002, 11:10 PM

Originally posted by Longshot
Seems that manners have completly left the building 'K I'm sorry if it came accross like that. I didn't mean to be rude :grin:

OK... confession... I know nothing about Doolittle's raid... sorry... must concede you that one.

Originally posted by Longshot
Here's another, any time a SF unit rescues a pilot. The enemy knows generally where the pilot is, knows we are coming for him and can put AA anywhere around him to shoot down the incoming aircraft plus move troops quickly to the area where the downed pilot is. wha...? please explain how this applies... soz im dumb... I don't get it.

OK!!!!!!! Stop assulting me with real-life examples! I concede you the vic there!!!! I know nothing about military history!

OK so even if they all got into Mordor (which does seem a little unrealistic to me. OK so you have all these elves, but you seem to have forgotten they don't care about middle-earth much?? that they are leaving??), there's NO WAY they would have gotton into Mount Doom. Come on, a puny attack force of a couple dozen elves on eagles??? Mordor has a few more armies than that.....

never mind your last paragraph in your first post ( idont think breakfast cereal was in ME)

No No No!!! They would not have not been seen in the air!!! How easy do you think it was to avoid sauron's spies!!!! (they didnt start in lorien BTW) his non-wraith minions are faster than eagles loaded with elves, believe me....sure, he was expecting something from gondor... which is why sneaking into mordor worked. but he'd certainly have enough time to readjust his thinking when he saw the (rather obvious) air assault.

NOT more feasable than walking into Mordor!!!! They don't WALK into Mordor!!! They sneak in so that Sauron doesn't see them so that they can get in mount doom so they can destroy the thing.

even granted they could get into Mordor (which i don't grant) there's no way they could get into mount doom. i mean, the one battle of pelenor fields was only a teesy weensy bit of sauron's total force-- which of course the remainder of which was (most anyway) in MORDOR!!! hence the fact that a bunch of elves riding eagles COULDN'T GET IN TO MOUNT DOOM AND DESTROY THE RING.

party? the only party that would have been happening is Sauron's. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Longshot
Seems that manners have completly left the building sorry, again! this is just a reminder that i do NOT mean to be rude. pleez dont take it that way.

Tar-Ancalimë

October 1st,2002, 12:03 AM

and you guys thought my last one was long!!
Beware!! I bet they are exponential!!!

Finrod Felagund

October 1st,2002, 05:06 PM

The last paragraph was a joke referencing a line in Monty Python's Holy Grail.

It applies because you are attempting to fly a small force into hostile territory, get something and get out without being killed.

Sneak?... also known as walking very quietly and trying not to be seen.
The Elves don't care? They obviously did care, Elrond sent his sons to fight with the Dunedain, Legolas ( an heir to another throne) went with the Fellowship that was going to have to walk/sneak into Mordor, walk/sneak past Sauron's hordes and then walk/sneak into the Crack of Doom unnoticed, and then walk/run out. This was the original plan. The Elves also fought in Lorien and in Gondor and in Dale. They might have even wanted to go for the adventure...

I know they didn't start in Lorien, They started in Rivendell, I was using Lorien as a rest stop.

Loaded down eagle being slower than any thing on foot?, Eagles can cover more distance flying than orcs can run, or a loaded down horse with a rider and horses tire and most of Sauron's toadies disliked horses. The evil men rode horses but the flight could avoid roads and inhabited areas to minimize being seen. The Eagles and the Elves had the best eyesight in ME and could have seen something in the distance long before they could be seen themselves. Besides, that is the last place any thing would imagine a threat to come from, the air. As far as Sauron's toadies were concerned, he had the only airpower, and if only nine eagles went and they were high enough, they could be mistaken for Nazgul (pushing it but the key word is high enough)

What is so hard about flying into Mordor, I don't see the difficulty
The Nazgul were the only thing that could touch them and 1. they were spread out 2. Only Frodo would have been scared and he would have been in no position to do anything 3. the Elven bowmen would have been able to defend against them

Troop movements take time, first they have to get the orders then they have to get moving then they have to WALK/run to where they are going. If Sauron himself sees the eagles flying over the Ash Mountains he has very little time (4-5 hours) to catch them or put somebody @ Mt. Doom to stop them.

From a tactical point of view, letting the Eagles fly in a small force has a higher chance of success than sneaking a small force over mountains through passes and across a waistland in hostile territory with little cover where the enemy can smell you as well as see you.

Besides, if the way is blocked, you fly out, not try to sneak out.
If a flight fails, the ring has a higher chance of staying out of Sauon' s hands than an earth bound attempt.

Flying gives a higher percentage of being seen ( and not as bad as you think if it is done properly), but speed reduces the amount of time the enemy can react.

Walking/sneaking gives the enemy LOTS of time to react. Once your cover is blown, things get much harder. Leaves way too many things to luck.

Tar-Ancalimë

October 1st,2002, 10:38 PM

... I get engaged in way t'many debaes... I really don have the time... oh well, like I'm gonna quit it anytime soon

so...

never seen it soz

ah... thx for explaining... anyway i told ya to stoppit with the military history stuff... ya got me there completely

sneak? thats exactly t'what I was referrin'
the elves were leaving middle earth the whole point o the war o the ring is that the men are takin over... that's why I don like yur elves business...

rest stop?? slows ya down even more, tryin' t'say Sauron wouldn notice all them eagles n elves flyin inta lorien??? i dunna thin so meself

pushin it indeed m'friend... plus i think surprise aint an option in yur plan... expecting it or no they wouldda seen em before they came. plus why are you talking about baddies gettin inta mordor, m'point's they're already in

don see the difficulty? have you read m'last posts???? if that wasnt clear i dunna how t'make it so.
1 they werent either spread out they were in mordor gettin new steeds after th' council 2 an 3 im tellin ya, yur elves thing is against tolkein i don like it an i bet he wundta either

when armies are crawlin all over mordor and mt doom 4-5 hours is enough he's effecient ya know

tactical view ta me is that sercrecy was th'best bet 'gainst mr sauron... eagles aint secret, i bin tellin' ya...

if either of em fail its a hunerd percen that sauron'll get his ring... so how kin ya say 'shigher if they go by air... it aint...

speed is less efficient than secrecy, man. an i disagree that they'd be fast... they wudnt

yeah but when yur sneakin in, less likely t'blow cover than if yur goin by air... reaction time??? hes still got a lot of reaction time 'fthey go by air ya know

(forgive the accent, I've been spending all day around someone who speaks just like that, now I'm thinking like that... why did you change your name?)

Finrod Felagund

October 2nd,2002, 05:05 AM

I rekon I ain't gonna change yer way of thinnin and y'ain't gonna change mine, We can continue this if you want but since we have said the same things atleast twice and neither see the validity of the other's point I offer a draw ;) :beer:

Finrod is my favorite character, he too was a believer in longshots and underdogs. He was wise and loyal to his friends and oaths
and More fitting to this forum

Tar-Ancalimë

October 2nd,2002, 05:09 AM

I agree with every single statement you just posted! You know, you're good at debating... better than most. And you totally lost me with the military history stuff.

I liked Finrod too... I think this name is much better.

Anyway... my point to all this was you said it was a flaw in Tolkien's books... I love 'em so much as to be blind to any and all flaws... so I must uphold its honor where I can! entdraught

Finrod Felagund

October 2nd,2002, 05:11 AM

We finally can agree on something :thumbs:

Finrod Felagund

October 2nd,2002, 05:20 AM

Thank you, feeling's mutual, I like engaging in more thoughtful subjects, Maedhros has some jewels in the Book sections( no pun intended):p . Although mention of Arwen/Liv can get me a little cheesed and I will add my $.02U.S. worth of fluff

Lady Melody

November 22nd,2002, 03:04 PM

Sauron could've grouped a buncha archer orcs and shoot the whole lot of 'em down, including Frodo. Anything can happen!

Ithielnor

November 22nd,2002, 07:50 PM

wow! I could refute some of your statments finrod, and strangthen tar's stance but it's been called a draw so I won't
ya both did a good job btw

Treebeard

November 30th,2002, 05:59 PM

Wouldn't Sauron notice a great big eagle flying over Mordor's boarders?

Sharky

December 1st,2002, 02:56 AM

My opinion is that no one could destroy the ring on purpose. Gandalf refused to touch it, as did Galadriel due to its power to corupt. Isildur couldn't cast it into the cracks of doom either, could Elrond have done it ? I doubt it, he too would have felt the power and baulked at the last minute.

Gwahir was Lord of the eagles so he too would have fallen to the power of the ring had he held it. A hobbit on the Eagles back wouldn't have worked either, even Frodo when he had the chance couldn't do it. Had he arrived by alternate means would have made no difference except that Gollum wouldn't have been there too, and Sauron would have captured the ring bearer.

Tar-Ancalimë

December 1st,2002, 03:02 AM

ChibiMelody- Yes, actually, that's where I was coming from. However, you have to admit that the theory isn't completely flawed :huh:

Ithielnor- Why bother to stay out of it? We're always open to another opinion (esp if it backs me up :grin: no not really, i know how bad that sounded lol)

Treebeard- I guess you didn't read the whole thread. lol....what you said has been covered many times over ;)

Sharky- that's a really good point, don't remember if i thought of it. i dont think i did. mmmm im so hypocritical, i cant be bothered to read the thread again while i am telling someone else to *sigh* lol (arg thats just because i am embarassed by a lot of what i wrote. it all seemed so nice to me at the time, but rereading it, im like :o did i say that??? lol)

Treebeard

December 1st,2002, 09:18 PM

A point can never be overstated.

I like Sharky's remark about the fact that Gwahir being the 'Lord of the Eagles'. Its very easy to miss the smaller points of Lotr when you are reading it by yourself........hang on i'm rambling.

I think the most probable answer to this question is in Tolkien's Biography. He wanted to create a Mythology for England. This book could easily be summarised in about 100-200 pages, the average length of a modern novel. However myths require depth, and the lengths that Tolkien went to creating, essentially, a new world for us to explore.

Judging the number of books written around the subject, I think this has been achieved.

Now we come to the point (he says at last). As an 'Englander', i would suggest Frodo and Gwahir going to the mountain and 'slam dunking' the ring, isn't how we would do it. The English look for the most complicated way to achieve something, think for a while, and then do it.

Sharky

December 2nd,2002, 12:38 AM

Lucky Tolkien didn't send the English cricket team to destroy the ring...they would have lost it within 3 days ! ;)

Treebeard

December 2nd,2002, 08:08 AM

Oh I like that, I really do like that.

I think the English Cricket Team may get the ring there as long as they didn't have a stuffy board of directors behind them!

Finrod Felagund

December 2nd,2002, 05:23 PM

Sharky, that's the best one yet. To that one, I will yield

Hans_Schuder

December 3rd,2002, 11:05 AM

Oddly enough I think the Fell Beasts the WETA folks developed will probably bypass the question in the audience's mind more than anything. I imagined the beasts nowhere near as ferocious and intimidating as what we saw in the Creatures of Middle-Earth featurette. I love them so far! :smooch: I doubt even Gwaihir could have stood his ground against something like the Fell Beasts in the film. (Probably make Eowyn's deed appear even more heroic in ROTK)

Narsil's weilder

December 22nd,2002, 09:55 PM

Ok so first the eye would notice and 2, The winged Nagul would take on a eagle. What would a eagle do to protect against a foul beast?

Tar-Ancalimë

December 22nd,2002, 10:44 PM

you know, Hans_Schuder, that exact same thought occured to me.. and consider the last scene of the movie, just before the credits... of the eye, and the fire, and shadow, and dark sky, and flame, and mount doom... with circling nazgul... what eagle would get past that...

Gorsnak

December 31st,2002, 11:38 PM

All the comments about the possibilities of sneaking into Morder via eagles seem to be overlooking an important point.

Sauron had and used a palantir - the Ithil stone. He saw a great deal. A pair of hobbits disguised as orcs walking through Morder = inconspicuous. A couple dozen eagles bearing elvish archers flying towards Orodruin = conspicuous. They would have been detected soon after leaving Rivendell. Their destination might not have been immediately obvious, but Sauron was no idiot.

Now, you say, why didn't he detect the fellowship on their way south from Rivendell on foot? Well, I'm sure he did. And his reactions make perfect sense. It's a ridiculous plan to walk into Mordor to destroy the ring. Obviously the party will head to Minas Tirith, where Isildur's heir will reclaim the ring. That is a very seriously dangerous anti-Sauron strategy (though not a serious anti-evil strategy), and Sauron's actions make perfect sense if you take him to be trying to counter a Ring-wielding Aragorn. He pushes his forces hard to take Minas Tirith before Aragorn can reach it. Probably he knew exactly where the Ring was at all times until the breaking of the fellowship, and only at that point lost track of where it was headed. After that, Frodo and Sam more or less vanish, but Aragorn remains highly visible.

Trying to fly into Mordor would have resulted in being watched the whole while. And while I tend to agree that the Nazgul couldn't have stopped eagles from reaching Orodruin, that does no one any good if there are several thousand Uruks deployed atop Mount Doom.

Iarfirithwen

January 1st,2003, 08:14 AM

Originally posted by Sharky
Lucky Tolkien didn't send the English cricket team to destroy the ring...they would have lost it within 3 days ! ;)
Oh Sharky, I do like that roflmao.

And excellent logic as always Gorsnak :grin: My sentiments exactly :) ....

Charis

January 19th,2003, 03:16 AM

Hi
I just saw this discussion and thought I'd put in my two cents.
If you remember from the book, Gandalf, Aragorn and co, did everything they could to make Sauron think they had the ring. That was the point of Aragorns big struggle with the palantier[I can't remember how to spell it], and the whole march to the black gates.
From what I got from ROTK, Mount Doom was normaly a busy place, with orc repair crews. Not an idea landing site for eagle secret agents.

Finrod Felagund

January 20th,2003, 06:11 PM

1. Eagles don't have to fight when they can outmanuver.
2. That was the movie not the book.
3. Mount doom over 60 miles from Barad-dur
4. Elves on Eagles can still shoot bows, No evidence of Nazgul with distance weopon
5. Couple of Dozen?, no more than 12 would be needed.
6. Low and Fast or very high. Sauron can't be looking everywhere at all times
They key here is speed and approaching from where the enemy is not expecting, Any direction other than West. Eagles fly faster than anything with a voice can run. So you arrive @ Mt Doom before word has reached Sauron that you are coming, or can mount a counter move. The Nazgul were fairly spread out so not all Nine would be available for defence.
Mordor was a fairly large area, on the order of the size of Austria (my estimation from Atlas of ME). He and his toadies cant' be everywhere at all times. The EAgles and the Elves had better eyes than anything Sauron had on the ground and could have avoided being seen.

Here's the Question:
What would you do think has a higher chance of success: a small flight <15 maybe <8 of very fast moving Eagle mounted Elves or 9 Walkers.

And I'm done

Tar-Palantir

January 20th,2003, 06:32 PM

I don't think that the Japanese had a GREAT BIG EYE THAT CAN SEE ALL there, now had they?

If the Japanese had known about the Enola Gay they would have shot it down.

Tar-Palantir

January 20th,2003, 06:35 PM

WOW! My OneHundreth post here on WotR!!!!!!!

So nice to be here, even better with some other Númenorians.

B.t.w. something got wrong with my last post, posted it too late.

Finrod Felagund

January 20th,2003, 06:49 PM

They probably would have.

If it could see all, Why didn't it see Frodo and Sam?

Tar-Palantir

January 20th,2003, 07:59 PM

It was distracted by the big battles in Gondor and in front of its own door (well, more exactly the Morannon).

Daughter of Gondor

January 26th,2003, 09:24 PM

Eagles would have been shot at. They are not small birds, especially not these eagles. Even the orcs would have seen them approaching. No matter how many Legolas kills, they will still outnumber the eagles. Besides, like the ents, the eagles don't like being involved, and unlike the ents they have no reason to. They wouldn't risk their own for something that could be done an easier way. (Easier for them) Besides if Frodo just dropped the ring into Mt Doom from the air, Sauron will probably "catch" it.

In summation, not a good idea. It would do better going to Gondor.

Gorsnak

February 16th,2003, 10:17 AM

Here's an alternative sort of argument against the Slam Dunk.

That's not how Illuvatar wanted it done. As evidence, I point to Gandalf telling Frodo that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker. This has got to be a reference to Illuvatar, I think. And, following Gandalf's logic, Frodo was meant to have the ring as well. And, finally, in the Letters (too lazy to look for a quote), Tolkien describes Gollum's finger-biting stunt as Grace being granted to Frodo (once again, by Illuvatar, or so I think we should read this).

Illuvatar didn't go in for his Children defeating Evil without putting effort into it. And, since the eagles are servants of Manwe, there's no reason to think they would have gone along with the Slam Dunk plan, even if it were tactically feasible. Which I still doubt it was (see my previous post in this thread).

Finrod Felagund

February 21st,2003, 06:34 PM

I tried to forget this thread but I had to jump in one more time

SPEED SPEED SPEED

I still say speed and surprise would allow them to beat anything of Sauron's to Mt. Doom.

Yes, Eagles could be shot at if they were dumb enough to fly within bow range of the ground. They could fly above the range of bows or even ballistas.

If Mt. Doom was already crawling w/ orcs, how did our fearless heros climb it without being seen/captured?

Fingon rode an Eagle to ANGBAND to save Maedhros, Eagles picked up Glorfindel and Fingolfin's bodies, even took on Morgoth himself to save Fingolfin's body from desecration. Not to mention all the things they did for Gandalf. They were the deciding factor in several battles so their lack of will to get involved does not fly. (oops, bad pun) :grin:

Tactically feasible? Neither was the Blitzkreig at the time... The German Army defeated a superior army of forces that had excellent defensive positions with speed and surprise, the French, British, Belgians, Dutch etc. never knew what hit them. They conquered more territory than any other army in history in the same amount of time. And if it hadn't been for the valor of the British fighter pilots, we'd all be speaking German. ( note the reference to airpower)

However, my thesis falls apart once Frodo gets to the Cracks of Doom. The Ring would have overpowered him and Sauron would have claimed it and game over

Tar-Palantir

February 22nd,2003, 12:13 AM

As for any real world comparisons, I have not seen anyone with a big all seeing EYE!
Only Sauron has that.

Gorsnak

February 22nd,2003, 08:43 AM

Morgoth didn't have a palantir.

No one said the top of Orodruin was covered by orcs when Frodo and Sam climbed it. In fact, all the orcs had been cunningly lured away by the prospect of a major battle. The argument was that seeing the ring carried by eagles towards Mordor would have given away the plan, and Sauron would have had time to get troops there.

Anyways, I still think Illuvatar didn't want it done that way, which would be an overruling factor in the eagles' decision to get involved.

Finrod Felagund

February 24th,2003, 03:36 PM

yes they do, it's called RADAR, well atleast for several hundred miles anyway

Tar-Palantir

February 24th,2003, 07:56 PM

FF, a Radar is not really a big friggin eye, now is it? ;)

Finrod Felagund

February 25th,2003, 10:51 PM

No, but the result is the same :p
ps, i capitalized b/c its an acronym, not to shout

Tar-Palantir

February 26th,2003, 12:12 PM

Well, I just objected because I think that a big eye is a little bit cooler than a simple radar. ;)

:grin:

Gil Galad

April 11th,2003, 11:25 AM

well sauron wud have realised straightaway that they intended to destroy the Ring, so therefore he wud have either blocked up mount doom or set a huge watch by bout air and land, and i dont think that even the eagles of Manwe wud have prevailed.itd be far to risky to try. id say the lads, gandalf and elrond, did think of it but dimissed it

Gil Galad

April 11th,2003, 11:31 AM

oh your comparisons to WWII are a little lawed, the german army was far superior to the Belgian Dutch and British armies and the French were weaker then them to. and it wasnt british fighter Pilots that won the war it was Hitlers hesitance in launchin a full attack on england

Narisunell

June 7th,2003, 07:23 AM

i don't believe this strategy would have worked. tis a bit difficult NOT to notice a big eagle, esp when Sauron can SEE ALL. that should simply close the case right there. BUT, Sauron didn't see Frodo and Sam and the Ring in Mordor, did he? No, but ppl make stupid moves in games all the time, and that's more of what it was. A life-size game gambling everyones freedom. it simply proves that he was as clueless at times as everyone else. AND Frodo was small. eagles are big. y'know? plus the story would have been three chapters long. :mmmm:

1. The Truth Behind Bilbo's Ring
2. The Counsil of Elrond
3. Frodo Flies to Mt. Doom and dies and all of ME is taken over by Sauron. Aragorn never gets to be king.

i wouldn't have read THAT book... no, i'd spend my time reading someting larger and more interesting.