Elves...(bows and polearms)

[Eomund]

I'd like to know that were the Elvish bows more like English longbows, or more like Arabian Shortbows? And why in the movie they (helms deep) started firing when uruks where so close, . if there would have been human lord then yes but against uruks if you are outnumbered...

And about elvish cavalry. IS THERE ANYWHERE SAID THAT ELVES USED CAVALRY IN THE SECOND AND THIRD AGE???

[Steve the Great]

Well, let me think... I suppose their bows are like to longbows (at least in the movies...) You're right, it didn't seem very wise to wait so long, but looked very cool in movie screen... ;) (btw. there's an another thing which seemed a bit odd: uruks started to run towards the wall with their long pike...)
I can't recall any reference concerning elvish cavalry at all... :huh: Ofc. they know horseriding well (remember Glorfindel and Asfaloth in FOTR), but I think they didn't have any cavalry units though... However, I will try to find references in books if I a little free time... :grin:

[Passin'Through]

The Noldor in the 1st Age used cavalry to great effect. I believe it was mainly the people of Maglor that used cavalry, but I could be wrong.

[Eomund]

that i remembered but in the next ages...that is odd.

and about the uruks, maybe they wanted to crush to walls or throw so long pikes or maybe they thought there were so many of them that losses dont count...


BTW: what do you thin how many got killed in the Elvish Volley and in the Rohan one...

[Finrod Felagund]

Glorfindel chased the Witchking in the Third Age, but that is the closest reference to Elvish Cavalry that I can think of. As far as I know there are no references to Elvish Cavalry in the 2nd and 3rd Ages. I have always assumed they had it, we know they had horses, special ones at that and they used them to good advantage in the 1st Age. I'll do some poking arond and ask some folks who might know.

FF

[Laurelin]

About the bows... it is my understanding that they are similar to English longbows, but greater in their range than an English longbow. In the movies, they used a bit of two different types of bows in one bow - the longbow with turkish/hunnic limb tips - which would give a slightly longer range if the bow was designed correctly. I'm not well versed enough to comment on the calvalry aspect. ;)

[TrueSwordsman]

One thing to note about the bows in the movie is that they had round bodies. This type of bow is very difficult to make. A typical wood bow has a flat front, which helps transmit the energy or stress of the pull over an even surface. Today’s bowyers use bamboo to back round bows, which provide the strength needed to keep a bow from breaking under heavy strain. Arms of Valor, Ltd. has been able to make a round bow without bamboo backing, but the draw weight is limited to below 50 pounds (Limited Edition Bow of the Golden Wood).

The bows in the movie were made of rubber, which allowed the style to break the rules of primitive bow making. One thing the movie bows have done is stimulate progress in the field of bow making, as it has driven the modern day craftsman to push the limits on what they can make. It took a year for the bowyers at Arms of Valor, Ltd. to create a bow similar to the one used by the Elves at Helms Deep. It has seven bends and had to be backed with bamboo to prevent breaking. A fully functional work of art! The overall principles used are still that of a standard English Longbow.

[elvenrocker]

and about the uruks, maybe they wanted to crush to walls or throw so long pikes or maybe they thought there were so many of them that losses dont count...

Or maybe they were just stupid and had no real battle tactics.

[Finrod Felagund]

This is from a friend of mine on another forum, she has scary knowledge of ME and its history:

The question I posed to her was if she knew about 2nd or 3rd Age Elf Cavalry. I asked for her offhand knowledge.

This was her reply:

I can't recall any off hand. The Elves obviously used horses because of the ones mentioned that were brought back to ME by the Noldor, but I don't recall any specific mentions of a cavalry. I can tell you the most likely places to look - the Silm, in the descriptions of the five battles; the Akallabeth, where it's discussing Elendil and Gil-galad's taking their armies to Rivendell; Unfinished Tales, History of Galadriel and Celeborn, the passages about the War of the Elves and Sauron, especially at the beginning when Elrond and Celeborn were fighting him outside Ost-in-Edhil.

There's the reference about Glorfindel that you mentioned, but I don't remember there being any mention of cavalry. In the military, the leaders and commanders usually would have horses, but I don't know if the rest of the men did as well, or if they were all infantry. Elrohir and Elladan had horses in RotK, but they were messengers in a hurry.

Another passage that just came to me, in Unfinished Tales, Description of Numenor, I believe it talks about a Numenorean cavalry and what impressive shots they were with the bow and arrow from horseback. I think it talks about the war of the Last Alliance there, but can't remember if it references Elves or not.

I'll give it some thought and let you know if I come up with anything concrete. Good luck.
------


FF

[IronHills Dwarf]

Hadn't seen this before. I can probably answer most of the questions here.


I'd like to know that were the Elvish bows more like English longbows, or more like Arabian Shortbows? And why in the movie they (helms deep) started firing when uruks where so close, . if there would have been human lord then yes but against uruks if you are outnumbered...


I think the question regarding type as been answered quite well. ;) As for why they waited its pretty simple. The farther you shoot the arrow the less speed it will have by the time it hits its target (sheds the force of the spring effect from the string). So when your looking at shooting heavily armoured Uruks you want to make sure you're going to pierce. So you wait a bit.


And about elvish cavalry. IS THERE ANYWHERE SAID THAT ELVES USED CAVALRY IN THE SECOND AND THIRD AGE???


Besides single riders no. Second age is simple to explain, very few battle descriptions exist. A detail like "the cavalry swept over the forces of Sauron" would be unlikely to occur. Its an overview more than anything else. Third Age is also simple, the Elves don't get much in the way of battle descriptions either. ;)

Did they use cavalry? Probably, but not to the same extent as they had in the First Age. Finrod had used horses quite a bit (horse archers and the dragon), but he and Fingolfin had the right territory for it. A plain. Think of the Elvish territories in the Second Age, hilly, rocky, not great for horses, or woody, also not ideal. So a heavy reliance on cavalry wouldn't have been a sound tactic.


(btw. there's an another thing which seemed a bit odd: uruks started to run towards the wall with their long pike...)


Simple to explain. Pikes have a hook on the backside of the main blade. Purpose is twofold, to hook onto rungs of ladders to push them up against he wall, and to hook defenders off the wall. So pikemen were pretty much a supporting force for the swordsmen.

Hopefully that answers most questions, but I'd be happy to help if inquiring minds have further queries. :)

[Laurelin]

Ah see, I knew IHD would have some answers for us! :thumbs: Thank you hon! ;)

[IronHills Dwarf]

No probs :cool: Oh and I should be e-mailing you a copy of that bow design in a couple days(revised it; actually looks waaay better thanks to your suggestions :grin: )

[Laurelin]

:blush: Anything I could do to help you and I can't wait to see the new design. ;)

[TrueSwordsman]

If it is a feasible design, maybe it can be made “real”. The AoV bowyers are full throttle at the moment, but things should slow around February (enough to try some new designs, anyway).

[IronHills Dwarf]

If it is a feasible design, maybe it can be made “real”. The AoV bowyers are full throttle at the moment, but things should slow around February (enough to try some new designs, anyway).

I didn't realise AoV was interested in more designs for bows. I sent them a few sword designs a while ago, most they didn't find interesting (I was one a design streak of heavy two handed battle swords at the time which probably explains it), but they did like one, so I am supposed to contact them again in January.

Should I send the bow design to them now or in Feb? It is functional, or should be possible to make it so.

Laurelin, most of the difference was in the nock shape. Changed them from the impractical "closed" shape to a really elegent (if I do say so ;)) flaired sort of thing. I'll see if I can scan it on Wendsday.

[Eomund]

Thanks for the replies.

I say you should send it now.

[TrueSwordsman]

The Swords are made overseas, so the research and development phases take longer and are more costly. It took over a year to develop and accept the High Elven King Sword prototype. Then another 2 months to complete the first batch of 1000.

Bows are a bit different. They are made in the US by master bowyers. The design and development is only about a month (depending on the complexity). It did take almost a year to develop the Helms Deep Bow (now called the Elven War Bow due to copyrights). It has seven bends and is backed with bamboo.

Just by seeing a picture I will be able to let you know how complicated it is and the R&D time required. It will then be up to the bowyers, sometime in December to turn the paper into wood.

By the way did you ever get one of your sword designs made? You had mentioned another sword maker that was going to try to make it.

[IronHills Dwarf]

Right I'll send you a image probably tomorrow then.

My smith friend I haven't heard from in a while, he was tied up with a ton of business paperwork, and overseas, so unfortunately he hasn't been able to work on anything yet. Generally the trouble is finding a smith who wants to make your stuff as a product line rather than a one-off costume piece. With time hopefully they'll find their way into reality. :grin:

[Laurelin]

Laurelin, most of the difference was in the nock shape. Changed them from the impractical "closed" shape to a really elegent (if I do say so ;)) flaired sort of thing. I'll see if I can scan it on Wendsday.
Sounds good IHD. ;)

[IronHills Dwarf]

Fraid no sketch today. Things started to go wrong when the car decided it wanted to be a tad cranky. ;) So my day sort of went downhill from there. I should get to a scanner on Friday.

[Laurelin]

Eh, that bites. Hope the car behaves better for you. ;)

[IronHills Dwarf]

Finally got is scanned.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/i_norm/belethronding-crop.jpg

[Laurelin]

This one is different than the one you sent me via pm. Interesting nock design. My fear is that the bowstring might slip off when this bow is drawn. If you made the inside part of the nock longer than the outside then you'd be ok. ;)

[IronHills Dwarf]

Hmmm, my theorizing was that by "flairing" the inside of the nock back out this wouldn't happen, but I will try a redraw with your idea, see if it still meets the visual appeal factor. ;)

The one in the PM was a brand new design, this was a revision of the old one.

[Laurelin]

Ah, I see. lol I do like the revisions you've made! I like the one you sent me too. Very pretty! :thumbs:

[IronHills Dwarf]

Well what the heck I may as well sprinkle a few more sketches around.

here's the one Laurelin was talking about.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/i_norm/Middle-earth%20Warfare/horsearcher-bow.jpg

Here's a sword that goes with it.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/i_norm/Middle-earth%20Warfare/horsearcher-sword.jpg

Matching set for a horse archer.

[Night Wolf]

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=36493

^^^ made by my good friend John Lundemo :) Whom I consider one of the best smiths in the US. www.odinblades.com NO ONE is making swords like this, most smiths turn down fantasy designs bar a select few. Production you get what you pay for, no matter how much supposed R&D they do...

as for the rest of the thread and all this talk of AoV I'll keep my mouth shut and nod lots ;)

[Laurelin]

Cool links Wolfie! :thumbs:

Love the sword IHD! :thumbs:

[IronHills Dwarf]

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=36493

^^^ made by my good friend John Lundemo :) Whom I consider one of the best smiths in the US. www.odinblades.com NO ONE is making swords like this, most smiths turn down fantasy designs bar a select few. Production you get what you pay for, no matter how much supposed R&D they do...


Problem is Mr. Lundemo charges a heck of a lot. For most of us its a bit expensive. He does decent work though. But its the difference of a one-off blade smith over a production line. I've already got a blade-smith if I want one.


as for the rest of the thread and all this talk of AoV I'll keep my mouth shut and nod lots ;)

Probably a good idea, AoV offers a range of products that are quite useful to those folks who can't dump a few thousand for a sword. They're also making bows unlike anything else on the market. As for the "rest of the thread business" feel free to shower criticism on my sketches, I really could care less, its for fun, and I'm always ready to learn.

[Night Wolf]

I didnt mention your sketches, and I'm afraid you'll learn nothing on here...since its all marketing for AoV, jump over to www.myarmoury.com where all the big people who know ALOT and work in the industry are on there, like Kevin Cashen, Angus Trim, Keith Larmen etc. Also www.axeforum.com has John Lundemo, Don Halter, to name a few.

The path of knowledge in weaponry CANNOT be gain on a fantasy site, sorry to have caused an issue, I shouldnt have posted in this section since its the same as the fan boys on the Highlander forum, and any other weapon based movie fora...If you want book recommendation I could post or send links to them :).

[IronHills Dwarf]

Sorry to disagree but knowledgable people don't just hang on the specialized forums. I've got no lack of books actually. But really since you do have contacts and knowledge feel free to comment, it'd be more helpful than telling us what we can't do.

[Laurelin]

This has been a fun tennis match... but I'd really like to know more about the bows and polearms. ;) Thankee darlings.

[IronHills Dwarf]

Sure.... I know, its bad form to wrangle in public..... :rolleyes: Whatcha want to know? ;)

Interesting fact is the supposed range of those Lorien bows would have been about 1/4 mile! (supposedly helped in part by special properties of mallorn wood, heartwood to be exact)

[Laurelin]

Yes, that's exactly what I was wondering. I knew the Lorien bows had quite the range and a 1/2 of a mile is pretty darned huge! Does that include the Bow of the Galadhrim? :huh:

[IronHills Dwarf]

1/4 mile dear.... ;) Half mile would just be a little to much. :cool:

I don't know if that was supposed to include Legolas's bow. I don't think so as its not a large in construction. The draw is a little bit less as well. (Lorien bows would have had 200 pound draw). IIRC (someone's borrowing my weapons and warfare book) Legolas's had about 150 pound draw. (winner for draw weight would be the bow of the Uruk Hai patrol that attacks the fellowship, thanks to use of iron in construction somewhere around 300).

[Laurelin]

*giggles* Mmmm, I meant that, but my finger hit the 2 anyway. :blush:

[Cuiel Rilwen]

WOW that is some poundage!!! :o I have that book myself but I never considered that in order to shoot at such a range the poundage had to be something out of this world...shouldn't surprise me tho! :grin:

[Laurelin]

Well...elves are strong I suspect so the poundage wouldn't be an issue for them or is it that the bows are magical? Arrows are light but strong?? lol :huh:

[IronHills Dwarf]

Heck you're both archers you should know its a combination of strength and training to hold a pull that heavy. ;) Yup, it appears the assumption was they were quite strong. For Uruk Hai that was certainly the case. The arrows would have to be extremely strong otherwise you'd have a real problem with shattered shafts. Also Lorien arrows have spiraled flights.

[Laurelin]

Technically for traditional archery, one should always use a helical fletched arrow. It stabilized the arrows flight! :thumbs: ;)

[IronHills Dwarf]

Well I think this was theorized as some sort of unique Lorien development for the Third Age.

[Cuiel Rilwen]

Technically for traditional archery, one should always use a helical fletched arrow. It stabilized the arrows flight! :thumbs: ;)

You mean like the whole stem of the arrow is a spiral?????? :huh:

[Eomund]

maybe but maybe not, it could be like aerodynamical gaps...((i hope))

[Laurelin]

No, not the shaft of the arrow, but only the fletches. The feathers are glued on in a slight spiral, evenly spaced on the shaft. ;)

[Cuiel Rilwen]

Arrrgh I feel stupid! Hahahahaha imagine a spiral shaft! lol We do have a traditional archer in the club, he shoots very well! He's got the most gorgeous arrows! Wooden with two-coloured feathers!

[Laurelin]

Oh yes. The different colored feathers do more than just look pretty. It (depending if you're using them this way) helps you quickly see which way you need to turn your arrow to nock it faster. ;)

[Cuiel Rilwen]

Ofcourse, my arrows are two-coloured in that way...but these are have two colours in each feather...like striped or summat!

[Laurelin]

I love those. They're so pretty. :thumbs:

[Cuiel Rilwen]

Like these...oh I hope I'll get me some of those one fine day!
http://www.warofthering.net/photoforum/data/526/393arrows_unvarn.gif

So the arrows should be positioned in a slight spiral on the shaft...how can I know I'm getting the right kind? Does it have a proper name?

[Laurelin]

Yes, the feathers should be slightly spiraled... either in a left or right helical formation. There is debate as to which one is best for a left/right handed archer. I should add some of this info to the Archery 101 Thread. Anyway, there really isn't any hard evidence that a right handed archer should shoot a left helical fletched arrow or visa versa. Just so long as a traditional bow shoot helical fletched arrows, you will see much better flight from your arrows than if it is fletched straight (compound bows have so much power and a different arrow rest that they don't need helical fletching). Traditional bows need this to stabilize the arrow in flight since it shoots off of one's hand or a shelf where the arrow must actually go around the riser of the bow. If you shoot a straight fletch, you will see the arrow kick wildly at the nock in a fish tail (side to side) or porpoise (up and down) as it flies to the target.

Did I make any sense? I'm a bit tired tonight. lol :blush:

[Cuiel Rilwen]

You make perfect sense, and by following your links I see how they should look too! :)

[Laurelin]

Glad I was able to help! ;)