HoME

[Laurelin]

lol Well I may as well make a thread dedicated to the History of Middle Earth so we can discuss it here. ;) Has anyone read all of those books? What are your thoughts? Does it confuse you at times with what occurred in the Sil? :p Which of the books did you find interesting/enjoyable? What didn't you like? ;)

[Gwaihir]

I've got only the first 6 or so at the moment... not easy to collect them all. My favorites are the Lost Tales I and II and the Lays of Beleriand. :grin: I just love the Lays because reading the stories in poetry form makes it seem so different!

Still trying to get the other books though... :(

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

I only have 1,2 and 5 of HoME...it's virtually impossible to find all of them in Greece! :( That's why the link I gave over at the Books of Lost Tales thread came in handy for me, dear Gwaihir...it had all of HoME in Word format...so I can print a few pages now and than and hopefully read the whole thing eventually...Still would prefer the books, though!mecry

[Laurelin]

Every now and then I see them in the bookstore here, but sadly its only when I seem not to have extra cash so I can buy them. :rolleyes: Figures, eh? lol

[Lady Galadriel]

I have BOLT 1 & 2, Peoples of Middle Earth and Morgoth's Ring. Apparently, Morgoth's Ring is suppose to be really, really good. I have not gotten around to reading it though. Only parts of it like the Elvish customs and the Debate of Finrod and Andreth about immortaly -vs- mortality.

BOLT 1 was challenging to read and I have not finished it as yet. Its hard to think of the Noldor as the Teleri and the changes in the family trees..very confusing at times.

[Laurelin]

I sat in the middle of the floor at Borders thumbing through Morgoth's Ring and it IS awesome!! :thumbs: I so want to buy that book but alas! I went back with money and it was gone. mecry So I wait...

I agree with you Lady G. I got pretty confused about the family tree thingy too and the Noldor as Teleri and then the name changes here and there. Interesting nonetheless, but challenging to keep straight in one's mind. lol ;)

[Charmander]

I'm so glad somebody started a thread about HoME! I've been reading them since September! I've gotten through the first three and am in the fourth one. I kind of like Christopher Tolkien's commentary - but it makes the reading a little disjointed. I do agree that reading the Lays in poetry is better than prose. I bought the box set of the first five, as soon as I get into number five I'm going to go to Amazon and order the rest! I never thought I'd be glad to commute - but it gives me lots and lots of time to discover ME!

[Laurelin]

Disjointed is a good way of describing it, Charmader. lol I still enjoy learning more and more about ME though. ;)

[Charmander]

I was just reading the Tale of Turambar this morning from the fourth book and I have to say that HoME is very repetitive. I know it's supposed to be - and I guess I'm glad for it, becasue this means I remember more of what happens. Did anyone else read that Tale and think of Oedipus Rex? The weird incestual relationship - not quite the same I realize, but along the same lines...

I also like how the stories continue from one to the other - so you can follow what happens. Like the Tale of Luthien continues right into the Tale of Turambar. I still like the verse style better!

[Laurelin]

lol Oedipus Rex... I never thought of that. Heh, interesting. You do have an interesting point. ;)

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

I said the same when discussing the love stories of Tolkien...Turin's story bears a very strong resemblance to Oedipus Rex...I think the tragedy might have been Tolkien's inspiration for this story! If you read Oedipus, you are stunned by the uncallny similarities!! :)

And...I seem to do a lot of my reading in my private lessons! My students do tests and...I read,lol! I learnt Sindarin in this way!! :p And read HoME 1,2 and 5 also!! And, Laur, hon...same with me, every time I come across one of the books in a store...I don't have extra cash on me to get them!!! (lol Murphy's law, I think!!)

[Laurelin]

Murphy should be shot. lol j/k of course. ;)

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

lol The really ridiculous part is that all he's said are actually...right!!!:elfeek:

[Charmander]

I'm reading the Quenta right now and Tolkien just introduced a young elf child Elrond - is this one in the same? I'm thinking yes...Also, the history of Gondolin is really interesting.

I hate to admit it, but I picked up HoME before the Silmarillion - much of what is discussed in HoME first appears there, right?

[Laurelin]

I haven't read that part yet. Does anyone else know? It could very well be the Elrond we know. Does it mention if he has a brother?

Yes, that would be correct to a point. HoME probably was never intended to be published by Prof. Tolkien. The Sil on the other hand was intended to be published and indeed was. I'd hold more faith toward the Sil and just think of HoME as possible senario's that could have happened if you understand me. lol

[Charmander]

Well, it said that the brother was edited out - in the notes - so I'm not sure if Tolkien had not completed the Quenta or not - maybe I should have read the introduction more closely lol

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

I always felt the same...HoME is a sort of alternate scenarios, a compilation of story-or history-development ideas he had, probably prior to almost finalising the Sil!!

[Lady Galadriel]

Yes, thats true. I understand the ones covering the LOTR, shows the earlier drafts of it. I chose to purchase the ones with the first age histories..simply because I love the Sil...and Morgoth's Ring was strongly recommended because of all the expansive material on elves.

[Laurelin]

Morgoth's Ring captivated my attention straight away! I really need to get that book so I can actually sit down and read it all the way through (instead of thumbing through it at the bookstore). lol

[Lady Galadriel]

Yeah, Laurelin, you should really get it. I have heard numerous people say that it is the best of the series because there is a lot of new information. Shame on me though, since I have only read certain parts of it...I havent found the time to actually read it from cover to cover. lol

[Laurelin]

Believe me I do understand about the time thingy, especially this time of year! ;)

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

Well, I have the whole thing downloaded in Word, from the link I posted in the Lost Tales thread, but I still want them all as actual books!!!I have never found many of them though... :( Morgoth's Ring...I've skimmed through it on the PC-all the stuff about elves caught my attention, too!! ;)

[Charmander]

Which number of the history is Morgoth's Ring? I am trying to read them in some sort of order - but the first four don't seem to be all that chronological - and very, very repetitve.

[Lady Galadriel]

I got this from CoE:

1) Book of Lost Tales 1
2) Book of Lost Tales 2
3) Lays of Beleriand
4) The Shaping of Middle-earth
5) The Lost Road and Other Writings
6) The Return of the Shadow
7) The Treason of Isengard
8) The War of the Ring
9) Sauron Defeated
10) Morgoth's Ring
11) The War of the Jewels
12) The People of Middle-earth
13) The History of Middle-earth Index

[Laurelin]

lol I was going to say 10 I thought... then I saw your post Lady G! You rock!! :thumbs:

[Charmander]

Thanks much! I was planning on just going down the list when I order from Amazon, but it's nice to know which one to look forward to!

[Lady Galadriel]

Guys, I hope you dont mind me sharing this with you. This is the advice I got from an experienced Tolkien fan

OK ... where to start??? This is a *big* topic! I'll give you the basics, then get back to me if you've got any more questions

HoME consists *mainly* of early writings - but some books contain *later* versions of stories than those published in LotR/Silmarillion. Basically, the lower numbered books are early, the higher numbered books are late - which is why generally people are pretty happy to accept stuff from Morgoth's Ring and Peoples of ME. Those two in particular contain a lot of Tolkien's later thoughts and theories.

So ... the work in HoME can be divided into a number of categories:

1) stories identical / nearly identical to published works
2) stories different to published works
3) stories not even in published books

1) stories identical / nearly identical to published works

Obviously, there's no problems there

2) stories different to published works

This is where the problems start.

If the story is from LotR, and the HoME version is an earlier draft, then generally it is thought to be just an early form of the final story. Late versions are more problematic - do we take the "official" version - i.e. the version in the published books - or do we consider that the canonical version really should be Tolkien's latest views on the subject. The answer to that varies from person to person - you just have to make your own mind up!

If the story is from the Silmarillion, things can become even more complicated. There are two views on the Silmarillion - 1) that it should be totally taken as canon, and 2) that it is only slightly better than HoME in terms of canon. This difference occurs because while its a published volume - and therefore should be considered canon - it was not entirely JRRT's version of events, as Christopher Tolkien did a lot of editing on it. One chapter he totally rewrote, and has since admitted that he got a few things wrong when he was compiling the book. But personally I am generally happy to accept the Silmarillion as canon.

So, if there is an earlier version in HoME, again its just a draft. Later stories - I would tend to suggest have about as much weight as the Silmarillion versions.

3) stories not even in published books

Anything in HoME than isn't in the published books, I would generally be happy accepting, except if Christopher Tolkien puts a note above it saying something like "this is an early draft, concept later abandoned" - there are a few of those drifting around.

Details ....

If there are details in HoME that don't appear in published works, I like to accept them. The published books are such a shortening of Tolkien's notes that details did get lost - a good example of this is the Fall of Gondolin chapter in the Silmarillion. A story which takes about 10 pages in the Book of Lost Tales occupies 1 paragraph in the Silmarillion. With that case, I'm quite happy to accept the HoME details that are missing from the published account.

Have a look at this ME article - there's a bit about canon and the Fall of Gondolin there.

There's also a canonicity thread in the Books Forum - here - but I'm warning you now, it gets very detailed

Hope that helps a bit! Come back if you want to know more

[Laurelin]

Thanks Lady G. I totally appreciate you sharing that with us. Quite helpful really. :thumbs:

[Lady Galadriel]

No problem. She is excellent. She does research for CoE and she have read all these biographies on Tolkien. The thing is, I was shocked when I read how these people discuss Tolkien HoME. They can debate about dates of published works as well as early drafts, etc...I was reading their thread and I eventually abandonned it...it was too confusing.

So, after I began to read the HoME, I was getting confused because of all the information in them...like I understand that UT is not canon and then there was this whole discussion about whether we can take the information in it as valid. :rolleyes: Thats why I enlisted help. Dont want to go around thinking that I know why I really dont. lol For instance, I was having a discussion with several others about the Palantiri as laid out in UT..then all of us on the thread was told by the moderator/researcher that we have to be careful because you have to know what is canon and non-canon. lol

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

*sigh* I get that in the Grrek Toliken forum...conversations abut HoME get too...analytical and eventually...too confusing! :( :p

[Charmander]

It is all a bit confusing. I almost wish Christopher Tolkien hadn't been so hasty in writing these books - it sometimes creates more confusion for us than not - but it is nice to see the different versions of all the tales!

[Periantari Andruil]

Names like Trotter and Bingo are hilarious though. lol

and i love reading the Sam Epilogue in Sauron Defeated. (and the alternate versions of Scouring and Grey Havens) :thumbs: =)

[Laurelin]

In reference to Lady G's comment... how do you know what's cannon and non cannon? :huh: I'm sure that is a bit of a challenge too.

[Lady Galadriel]

Here are two links that might be helpful:

Council of Elrond: What is considered Canon (http://www.councilofelrond.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=XForum&file=viewthread&tid=14007)

You might be able to decide from some of the ideas stated in the above discussion.

The Canonical Middle Earth (http://tolkien.slimy.com/essays/TolkParish.html)

[Laurelin]

:thumbs: Thanks Lady G!

[Lady Galadriel]

To be honest, that discussion kinda lost me. lol

[Laurelin]

Yeah, I'm noticing that its quite confusing! lol They seem to debate about every little thing in there too.

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

lol It did remind me of the Greek forum! We've had some heated discussions about Tolkien's work in there, too!:P

Started reading the Lays of Beleriand...printed the whole thing out!!Looks interesting!!! :grin:

[Gwaihir]

Indeed it is! I simply love the battle between Fingolfin and Morgoth! It's pretty detailed and exciting to read!

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

I loved that duel from the Silmarillion already...the prose was great there!"and Morgoth came." Just...one little sentence and you come to shudder at the magnitutde if what is about to happen!

[Lady Galadriel]

Indeed it is! I simply love the battle between Fingolfin and Morgoth! It's pretty detailed and exciting to read!

Which HoME is this in?

[Gwaihir]

Which HoME is this in?
Oh, I was referring to the post before mine by Ithildiel... it's in the Lays of Beleriand. I love the poems in it. I wonder how Tolkien got all those lines to rhyme!

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

Me, too, Gwaihir...I have to admit, poetry has never been my strong suit! ;) But reading the tales of the Sil. in rhyme...was incredible and so interesting!!!

[Charmander]

I am right there with you both! I love the poetry! I've always loved Shakespeare and Tolkien is just as colourful! Reading all the Lays is so interesting! And his word usage is so clever! Now I understand why it took years of his life to compose some of that stuff!

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

Another Shakespeare fan, also, Charmander?:smooch: :grin: His plays and poetry have always been my favourite, too!!

[Charmander]

I really love his tragedies over his comedies - but the poetry is so - I want to say visually appealing - but I'm sure there's a word for it lol - is there a thread for this - I wouldn't mind discussing it in more detail - but I don't want to get in trouble :)

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

Well...you just gave me an idea, Charmander! ;) I think I'll go and open a Shkesperean theatre thread over it "Other Books"!!I love his tragedies more than his comedies, too, the language is just so...compelling! I felt as if I saw every scene as he described it...not sure if I'm making any sense here... :blush:

[Lady Galadriel]

lol You guys are off to talk Shakespeare.

I have to get the Lays book then. It sounds interesting. I love poetry...and I especially love Shakespeare poetry. :grin:

[Charmander]

You absoultely love it!! It's certainly worth the read - but as I've said before - sometimes Christopher Tolkein is helpful and sometimes not - I read about half of the notations lol! I'm almost done with book four - as soon as I start book five I'm off to Amazon for the rest of the set! Then I might have something more subtantive to say :)

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

lol Shakespeare and Tolkien share the same integrity in their poetry, I think...they both give off a sense of romance, of tales passed on from generation to generation ans a strong sesne of romantic nostalgy, as well! At least...to me! :blush:

[Lady Galadriel]

I watched the commentaries to ROTK SE last night and I would say that Tolkien is a deeply romantic man. He loved greatly, it seemed. His writings reflect that. One of the commentators said that Tolkien waited until a minute past midnight on his 21st bday and he sat down to write a letter of proposal to Edith. :loveyou: Before that, his guardians did not allow him to act as he pleased.

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

I'd read that somewhere...I thought it was so rmantic!:love: But even before that, I knew the Professor was a hopeless romantic, I think(I'm a hopeless romantic, too, btw!lol )! :blush: All you have to do is read LotR to see that... ;)

[Lady Galadriel]

Really? You think LOTR is romantic? :grin: I think Silmarillion is romantic. Its bursting with overwhelming passions, be it love, hatred, jealousy, folly, anger...etc. When I read the Silmarillion, every story had me in tears. I felt like every story was a tragedy...actually, every story was a tragedy. But I love it. I remember more of the stories in the Silmarillion than LOTR. :rolleyes: I remember I kept thinking if it could get any worse. (something like reading the last installment of Harry Potter). :(

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

Well, I read LotR bafore anything else...Silmarillion came much later for me and I felt Tolkien's nostalgy for a mythical world of unshakeable values, wild nature and epic adventures-the classical battle of good Vs evil given in a new light;that is the province of the romantic for me...creating a worlgd he has but dreamt of...when I read the Silmarilion, though, that was verified-my initial idea, I mean...I think Tolkien was perhaps the greatest romantic of all... :grin:

[Lady Galadriel]

Indeed he was one of them! I remember when I first read the Silmarillion, I was so caught up with keeping the family trees straight. lol I actually wrote notes and drew the family trees. lol Anyway, I could read it repeatedly. The tragedies are so real to me. I love it!

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

I love the Silmarillion, too! The stories are so...incredibly human! They just give a totally different dimension to everything in LotR! I picked up the Silmarillion after LotR looking for answers to questions that I had in it...eg. who was Luthien :blush: !And the stories I came across there...haunted me, in a sense...I loved them all, not just as the answers to my questions, but also as a new side of the world I had been introduced to in my loved LotR...

[Lady Galadriel]

It also helps that I am a hopeless romantic...there are so many tragic love stories in the Sil. I remember someone brought up the elf who loved Turin. That story had me crying...when the messengers told Turin that she said to tell him where she was buried. Not to mention, I LOVE FINROD!

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

I loved everything in the Sil.lol I even loved Feanor, I admired his spirit-though he lost points after Alqualonde!lol

Turin and Luthien were 2 of my favourite stories...Turin reminded me of Ancient Greek Tragedy, Luthien just felt...like a fairytale and I liked that!

Yes...as I said, I'm a hopeless romantic too! :grin: I sort of believe all of us Tolkien fans and readers are that... :blush:

[Lady Galadriel]

Turin and Luthien were 2 of my favourite stories...Turin reminded me of Ancient Greek Tragedy, Luthien just felt...like a fairytale and I liked that!

Really, Luthien & Beren reminded you of a fairy tale? It did not have that effect on me. It was bitter/sweet. It seemed to be riddled with grief. I remembered when Luthien came back from the Hall of Mandos, Tolkien said that Melian looked upon her and turned away and looked no more. mecry She saw in Luthien the eternal separation from her child and she was grieved. Also, the treasure that was to win Beren the hand of Luthien, was the ultimate destruction of Thingol. Nah! I see it as a tragic story. Not to mention that Dior, Luthien and Beren's son, was later slain for that same silmaril....then Earendil and Elwing were separated from their sons because of that same silmaril. The story perpetuates into further tragedy.

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

Well, it felt like a fairytale at first...fair elven maiden dancing in the woods, enchanting a mortal who falls in love with her...but that's where the fairy story stops...The rest is tragic...their fate got involved with the silmaril, so there could never be a happy ending...Even Thingol got...enchanted with the mythical beauty of Feanor's cursed stones and that was his undoing also!!

[Lady Galadriel]

Well, it felt like a fairytale at first...fair elven maiden dancing in the woods, enchanting a mortal who falls in love with her...but that's where the fairy story stops...

I am really enjoying this discussion. Anyway, I understand why that part would seem like a fairy tale, but guess what? The commentators said on ROTK SE that Edith use to dance in the woods and sing to Tolkien. Shocker, right? I almost fell off my bed when I heard that. I mean, the comments confirmed the premise that Beren/Luthien and Aragorn/Arwen were truly based on Tolkien's real life affair. I mean, I never would have thought that Edith did that for Tolkien. So romantic! :grin:

Oh, and another thing, what do you think of the allegation that Tolkien placed women on a pedestal? I have seen that discussion a lot over at CoE and it was discussed a little on the commentaries of ROTK SE.

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

I didn't know that!! How romantic...Edith WAS, after all, really his own Luthien!!:love:

And I've read the opposite opinion about Tolkien, somewhere in the Greek forum...i.e.that he wasa bit of a misogynist...hated women! But I think what you say is right...all his women are creatures of beauty, strength and courage...so he MUST have loved them! ;)

[Lady Galadriel]

A misogynist? Tolkien? I have never heard that one. Isnt something how people interpret differently? lol I guess they are talking about the absence of an abundance of women in LOTR. lol

With the pedestal thingy, I wouldnt say that he placed women on a pedestal...I think he respected women...wasnt he living in a chivalric period? lol Actually, men still open doors even in modern times...I experience it almost everyday at work. But in any case, all those women had some kind of flaw. Not physically, but in things they do.

Luthien: she never gave thought to her parent's feelings when choosing mortality.
Arwen: she was the same as Luthien
Melian: she forsook her people and kingdom when Thingol fell
Elwing: she forsook her children to seek Earendil (never mind she thought that they were dead)
Rian: she succumbed to her grief, leaving Tuor to become a thrall
Morwen: she sent Turin to Doriath instead of accompanying Turin herself...she wanted to wait for Hurin

I am sure there is more. These women arent all above reproach, but at the same time, Tolkien respects them.

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

lol Well, I'd heard the misogynist theory and was really surprised, I'll admit that! THe women of Tolkien are far from flawless, but their strength and the Professor's love and respect for the female sex are undoubtable, to me, at least! That's why the misogynist theory felt so strange to me... :p

[Lady Galadriel]

What about the fact that people say that Tolkien does not like analogies to his work? I mean, regardless of his opinion, his histories are overflowing with a similar creation of heaven/hell/angels. There is a very large thread over at CoE just for the discussion of the AfterLife, something that Tolkien placed a lot of emphasis on.

[Charmander]

A very interesting discussion the two of you have been having :)

I think it's an interesting point you bring up Lady G, I feel like I've heard that too - that he doesn't want people to take anything more out of it than is there - but I think the essence of it is that there are layers and symbolisim - isn't there a whole thread for that in LotR? Being such a religious person as he was I find it hard to believe that the forces of darkness and the clear human flaws aren't allusions to something from the Bible. I mean - the race of men were banished from Valinor, right? Much like Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden. I think I've mentioned the Tale or Turambar being a lot like Oedipus Rex too - it is all right there, whether he acknowledges it or not, I think. I don't know - feel free to disagree - or at least make commentary!

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

Well, Charmander (we missed you over the weekend!:rose: ) I always felt that literature must be read for what it is...Having majored in lit at the university...I came to debate on overanalysing works of literature, looking for symbolism where the author intended none!

I also heard Tolkien didn't appreciate -indeed, didn't even want-people to read his works for more than what they were, but I think, that whether a writer is aware of it or not, he puts a piece of himslef, his beliefs, his principles, the essence of himself in what he writes...that is for the reader to discover. Tolkien was genuine; what he let into his work was himself, and that is I feel what enchants us all who read his works.

I wosh I could say the same for many other writers...who just exhausted symbolism and allusion to make people analyse their work... :( Tolkien has got so many layers in his storie, I think, and I also think he didn't even try or think to put them there; they were just parts of himself- beliefs, dreams, opinions-that came alive on paper... :cool:

[Charmander]

Thanks! I'm sorry I was remiss - I logged on once and then got off because the dial-up is for $%&^! I know what you mean about exhausting symbolism and allusion - I'm thinking specifically of the Great Gatsby! There were so many parts of that novel that were just too much!

I usually do what you descirbe - read it for what it is - but being a lover pop culture and history it's hard not to see further into writing. What's kind of funny is that sometimes I'll be reading classics and think, they stole that from...but then that's not the case - it's the other way around lol - I'm not sure what this has to do with HoME...

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

lol I was actually thinking of TS Elliot's Wasteland, when I was writing the previous post...so much symbolism just randomly thrown in! The Great Gatsby... had forgotten about that...I got the same feeling there! Too much too often!lol

And I always felt like Tolkien poured his very soul into his work...which I always loved!

[Lady Galadriel]

Dratted work keeps me from perusing these forums when so many of you are on (just a little rant) lol

Ithildiel Noldoran, I agree with you. Though Tolkien did not like analogies to his work, he certainly could not escape pouring his principles and beliefs into his writing. I mean, if you really think about it, it must be hard for a writer to suppress the essence of his beliefs in his writings.

Charmander, whats that you were saying about the classics? I didnt quite understand what you were saying. :grin:

Oh! another thing, I would not say that men were banished from Valinor. I believe the elves had a right to be in Valinor simply because they were immortal and needed a place to restore their strength when weary of the world. And you must admit that "living forever" have the capability to drive one mad. I mean, can you imagine, the same $#& over and over again...no escaping it. lol

Anyway, it was said in the Silmarillion that as the ages pass, the elves and the Valar will begin to envy men..because of men's ability to leave the world. And I think Finrod said it best: there is a shadow behind men while there is a shadow infront of the elves.

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

lol Living for ever can be problematic, I'll agree...The elves tired of it over the ages and the passage of thime and the fading of the world around them grieved and saddened them... :(

But were men really allowed to go to Valinor? I am not sure!

(And I wish I could have more time online, too! mecry )

[Charmander]

Lady G - I just meant that some classics have been stolen from, not the other way around. Case in point Count of Monte Cristo - all the varying elements of that story have been used in modern literature and movies, and until I had read the book I didn't realize that it came from Dumas and not the modern artists ;)

I am giving myself more time on-line than before lol - primarily because I got shafted in teh evaluation process and don't feel motivated to do actual work anymore - it literally isn't worth my time - but lets not get into it - I'm looking for a new job as we speak - so they can kiss my @$$ as I leave! Hopefully sooner rather than later!

I'm still not sure about Valinor - I thought that when Numenor was destroyed or something the Valar decided that men were no longer worthy to enter? But this is from HoME - which has so many versions its hard to tell which one is which lol!

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

More time online...I want more of that, too! lol I'll have to go to work soon!mecry

And I have to agree about the classics...they set the standards for a lot of modern fiction and film-making, too!

I recall reading somewhere that Tolkien's LotR set the stage for the fantasy genre in general...and for the RPG genre, as well!

[Lady Galadriel]

**okay pardon the succeeding rant** Charmander, same here...I just had evaluation last week and I did not fill out the 20-page document. The Controller said that the CFO was upset and insisted that I do it...actually, what I really did was copied last year 20-page document and made minimal changes....he discovered that I did nothing much to it by comparing it to last year's. lol Anyway, she convinced me to re-do the form since I was in the pool of individuals under consideration for a higher raise than usual. Screw them indeed after 3 years of worthy work. I still plan to leave next year. **rant ends**

Back on topic- Men were never allowed to enter Valinor. Only Tuor, who was given the gift of immortality, and Frodo, Bilbo, and Sam were probably allowed into Valinor.

[Charmander]

**Lady G - :thumbs: to at least being considered :)! Corportate America is just horrid these days :(!**

Huh - I was never sure about that - was it in the Sil? I mean that information? I finished the section on Numenoureans yesterday and it talks about an Island that they destroyed - because of avarice or pride - or something to that effect - but I think it was included in the Sil, or maybe the Quenta Silmarillion - there are so many notes from Christopher Tolkien I get confused :huh: You're right about the hobbits - I believe Gimli was also allowed in - but those were the only non-elves there.

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

*rant time for me, too lol * I work in a Technological Training Center for Adults...TTC for short and they haven't paid us for the last year!mecry We work with 6 months contrracts(each semester we apply again) so, I'm
not applying again next semester...had enough of being pressured for perforamce, punctuality and responsibility and getting nohing in return! :( *rant over*

I thought the same...but I didn't remember Tuor...Only Bilbo, Frodo, Sam and Gimli-do you imagine the Valar's reaction to having a dwarf in Valinor, btw?lol

[Charmander]

*I think we all need a rant page! That's pretty bad - Ithil - I think I might stop complaining. All my friends keep saying it could be worse - and there you have it*

I'm sure the Valar were happy to have such a well-spoken dwarf!! Plus - I imagine all the elves are even more enlightened in Valinor - I mean it is a special place, right? I think Tuor is in the Sil and is mentioned, but not extensively, in HoME - the first four or so :mmmm: It's like I read it and it goes in and out of the ears lol!

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

*rant page...not a bad idea!lol But, in my caes, they are just back in payments...leaving us unpaid for a really long time till they get on track! That's red tape for you! and the TTC is not a private institution, it's supposed to be government supported! :rolleyes: I just hope they pay up soon!*

And what do you think about the realtionship-hostility lol- between elves and dwarves? Was that also due to the silmarils?

[Charmander]

*rant page would be really funny too roflmao ! I can't believe you've stayed as long as you have - but I guess given different circumstances...*

It's interesting you bring that up - in HoME there is a whole story - and now I'm trying to remember which one - but there was a elf king who commissioned some dwarfs to make gold into jewelry or something and the elf who commissioned the dwarves was quite devious and made sure that the dwarves were basically working for their freedom. When they finished they cursed the jewelry, which I think had a Silmaril in it :huh: and then they were killed - or got into a huge battle. I think I really butchered the story - but I think the bad feelings were started there - and that also lead to the belief that dwarves only care about jewels - as they wanted the treasure they had worked on. I might need to re-read HoME lol

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

*I stayed on, because they told us they would pay up soon and it was just a temporary problem...but enough is enough! :rolleyes: This semester has been just horrible, I got a really nasty class, that always try to get me in trouble...for actually trying to teach them a thing or two rather than goofing off, like everyone else does! pfbbt And to top it off...I get sermons from the management about my "obligation" as an educator to the TTC...what about their obligations towards me???:archer:So I won't apply next term... :nono: *

The elven king was Thingol, btw, who asked the dwarves to make him a necklace to match the silmaril Beren got for him. The dwarves did it, but blinded by their greed for the silmaril, they wanted to keep the necklace for themselves-the necklace was called Nauglamir...just remembered that!Thingol would never accept that; There was a fight and the dwarves, I think, killed Thingol...Another tragic story involving the silmaril! ;)

[Charmander]

*well - at least you're getting out now! I can't believe a business would try to run like that - but it takes all kinds :(*

You remember better than I do!! I can't see how anyone can blame the dwarves for their reaction to the Silmaril - I mean, it was enchanted? Do you remember if they did the work willingly? Because that also might have something to do with it? Brain - why won't you work! I am surpirsed that one bad experience soured the whole relationship - but I imagine we can find real world examples and it won't seem so out of place :(

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

*And it's suposed to be governmentt- sponsored...how silly is that? :( *

And the dwarves agreed to do the job willingly-they were the same who built Thingol's palace, Menegroth, I think-need to reread the Sil. lol-but they got greedy too and there was bloodshed and Thingol died, Melian's Girtle broken...chaos! :( No wonder their relationships werer not the best after that!lol

[Lady Galadriel]

Ithildiel Noldoran, are you donating your services? It more sounds like that to me. I would have been out of there long time. The only reason I would stay is if the experience was advantageous to me in the long run. Other than that, charity is out. Especially when its a business that makes money. pfbbt

Yes, the king was Thingol, Charmander. I think everyone that ever did any evil for the likes of the Silmaril should take responsibility for their actions. It seems to me that the Silmaril preys on the inherent weakness in some of these individuals. Look at Beren and Luthien, they did not seem to be affected by the Silmaril. The dwarves should take responsibility for killing Thingol. It was so clearly impressed upon my mind when I read the story. Anyway, the hostility between elves and dwarves is not surprising. Remember, elves live forever, and I am sure that they remember those events as if it was yesterday. A hidden kingdom was destroyed because of the faithlessness of those few dwarves who were the smithies. They entered into an agreement with Thingol only to renege on it afterward...claiming the love of their labor. I am not saying that all dwarves are to be blamed for the actions of a few, but I can see why the animosity still exists.

Oh, and I believe the it was okay for Gimli to go to Valinor especially since Aule lived there. Let us not forget that Aule is their father.

[Charmander]

Thanks for the info Lady G - I was certain we were close but not remembering it quite correctly lol. I have a follow-up question - I know I just read this in one of the HoME's, but wasn't there a point where some dwarves were forced to create beautiful gold and were then denied payment for their services? Or am I really out of it and this is all the same story and thanks to Christopher Tolkien I'm just really confused? I remember reading something along those lines - and then the gold was cursed...drat - I can't remember at all...looks like I'll have to start reading HoME all over again :(

[Lady Galadriel]

I cant really recall anything like that. However, remember some of these writings are earlier drafts of the stories. That is why you have to be very careful in distinguishing what is canon and non-canon and what survived and what did not. ;)

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

I'm not donating my services, Lady Galadriel, :p and I only stayed on because the experience...it makes it a lot easier for me to get into private TTCs that pay the same...and do so on time! ;) So, i'll just give up the Public TTCs now and go to the private ones! :grin:

and I think the dwarf story with the gold, Charmander mentioned was the one with Thingol...an earlier draft of it that didn't remain! ;)
And I too think everyone involved with the silmarils should take responsibility for their actions...they coveted the stones out of greed and the curse of Mandos followed them; Beren and Luthien did not feel that greed, though...so ther fate was somewhat more lenient! ;)

[Lady Galadriel]

What about Elwing? It didnt really seem like she desired the Silmaril. I think her excuse was that Beren and Luthien sacrificed themselves for it...so it was a treasured family heirloom.

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

And Earendli didn't want it either...was his becoming astar a reward or a punishment for daring to seek out the secret way to Aman?

[Lady Galadriel]

I think it was a reward...though I dont understand why. Dont you think it is weird for Elrond that his father is up in the sky as a star?

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

Well, I always thought Earendil's fate was a bit of a double-edge sword...both a reward-in the eyes of the Valar- and a punishment for his daring nature, who sought to do what none had done before... :(

and I think Elrond might feel a but...awkward about his father being a star!lol

[Lady Galadriel]

But isnt it sometimes that he is up there...like in the nights...? Doesnt he come back down to greet Elwing everyday?

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

I think he was never allowed to set foot on Arda again, to the end of the world...I thought that was a bit sad! :(

[Lady Galadriel]

Oh, is that why Elwing was set in a tower to live?

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

Hm...I had forgotten about that... :blush: It's possible, since Earendil was never allowed to walk on Arda again... ;)

[Lady Galadriel]

Thats so unfair though. I mean, Frodo gets to go to Valinor. :(

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

Only because Arwen offered him her place in the Blessed Realm...but I think Earendil's fate was considered the highest honour by the Valar...though he himself had not realised the price he would come to pay when he set off for Aman... :(

[Lady Galadriel]

True. He stayed in Valinor for Elwing though. Oh, and another thing, why did Tolkien write that Elwing stayed in Valinor for the sake of Luthien? That was kinda confusing. Afterall, Luthien is beyond the confines of the world. Only unless she means in honor of Luthien.

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

Hm...I don't remember that, but then I haven't read all of HoME yet! :blush: She probably meant in honour of Luthien, though...

[Lady Galadriel]

No...its in the Silmarillion. When the Valar asked Earendil for his choice...he turned to Elwing...and Elwing decided that she wanted to be counted among the first born for the sake of Luthien. ;)

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

*sigh* Need to reread the Silmarillion, I think! :blush: But everyone in Earendli's bloodline had that choice...between Firstborn and humans to make, right?Elros, I think, Elrond's brother chose the humans...Elrond wanted to stay with the elves!

[Lady Galadriel]

Yes. What I couldnt understand, is why the choice had to be passed on to Elrond's children? It feels uneven. Elros chooses mortality, hence removing the choice for his children. Its permanent....so Elrond's choice should be permanent for his children as well. :rolleyes: Leave it to Tolkien to make things complicated. lol

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

lol complicated indeed...Didn't Elros's children have the choice, as well, regardless of their father's selection?They should have...right? :(

[Lady Galadriel]

No. The moment he chose mortality, the choice was removed. They were all mortal. Thats why Elrond's children should not have had that choice. :rolleyes:

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

Well, that is a little one-sided...If Elrond's children had a choice, Elros's should have had it, as well!! :(

[Lady Galadriel]

True. I think that the offspring from an elf pairing is usually mortal except for Luthien's line. Dior is half elven but we never hear of his fate. Its a mystery.

[Gwaihir]

Maybe Elwing decided to be counted among the Elven kind to take the place which Luthien was supposed to take. Too bad we don't know much about Dior the Fair! I wish Tolkien had been more descriptive in telling of the Ruin of Doriath.

[LothlorienKiki]

Ahem, I have a question: I will be starting to read HoME soon (after I finish the Unfinished Tales) and I want to know: will it be like the Silmarillion? As in, when you first begin to read it it is very slow, and you feel like giving up, but you keep on going and are happy that you did? (and on the second time you realize it is brilliant, and amazing, and spectacular, and so on and so forth) I need to know in advance, so that way I can brace myself. I will read it no matter what, but I just need to know. Thanks if you can answer the question!

[Gwaihir]

Well, HoME like the more detailed version of the Sil, but in many places the stories are quite different from the Sil because they are the earlier versions that weres put away until Christopher Tolkien found them. I think some of them are easier to read than the Silmarillion, but other parts may be rather dull and long. I don't read the extensive notes by Christopher... they become very tiring after a while! When you read them, it's important to remember what's canon and what's not.

[Lady Galadriel]

I agree with Gwahir. The HoME can be very confusing at times. I am stuck on the BOLT 1 because it confuses me some what. The Noldor is the Teleri in the BOLT...and the family relations are changed. When I get the courage again, I will continue. But I abandonned that for the much later books.

[Charmander]

I have to agree with both Gwarhir and Lady G - I'm almost done with book five of HoME - thanks so much US Aiways pfbbt! - And it is really repetitve from book to book and Christopher Tolkiens commentary can be quite distracting and jarring. It destroys the flow of the storytelling. I think the best descprition would be like a series of essays for a history. Maybe that didn't make sense :huh: lol! It is certainly worth the read - but it is very time consuming. I haven't quite made it to HoME six and up - but that is fast approaching :)

[Lady Galadriel]

lol Were you stuck in an airport somewhere, Charmander?

Hooray! At Book 6 now.

[Charmander]

I was indeed - from 5:30 yesterday morning to 8 PM! I have seen the whole of Tampa airport lol! You did eventually make it to your destination? I just saw the post in the A/A thread and was like - what a horrible time to travel lol I should have known! I had this same problem last year! I am so stupid sometimes.

:blush: I actually haven't read the Sil - so I bought that and I'm going to read that before moving into the War of the Ring - I gotta tell you - I love Barnes and Noble - they have a very respectable Tolkien collection - I could've gotten almost all of the books I 'needed' this weekend - but I think I should finish the ones I have lol As soon as I finish the Sil and start book six I'll give reviews here!

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

Well, I'm reading them a bit...backwards, to be honest, depending on which ones I can find first!Just got Morgoth's Ring...after uor talk about Elven customs, Lady G! :blush:

[Charmander]

I expect a full report when you're done! I'm hoping there's a lot more language information than ever - not that I have time to be learning anymore languages lol!

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

It looks interesting so far... ;) But I've only read about 50 pages! I think the most information on Tolkien's languages are in Book 5, though...I got it when I was learning Quenya! ;)

[Charmander]

In book five - of HoME? Hmm - that's what I'm reading...but I'm in the synopisis of the Sil - I think there's more to come - or I might just break down and buy that David Salo book that just came out...

[IronHills Dwarf]

I've finally ordered what will be for me the first of the HoME books I'll seriously tried to read. I got "The Complete History of Middle-earth Volume 3" which has books 10, 11, and 12. The so called later Silmarillion. I decided on these because they probably are more of an add on as far as I could tell than the other ones. I still refuse to read Lost Tales ;) , I don't think Tolkien ever meant for it to be published along with allot of the other stuff Christopher dug up. But hopefully I'll like what I've ordered, still a bit learly though.... :rolleyes:

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

Well, I'm reading Book 10 right now and it DOES seem really interesting...I can't wait to read your reviews of it, Ironhills Dwarf! :grin:

[IronHills Dwarf]

It'll be at least 3 weeks before the book arrives unfortunately. But yeah, I was never that interested in the other books in the series because it almost seemed a bit rude to publish the older material after the man's death, when you don't know if he ever intended that version to be read.

[Charmander]

That's an interesting point you bring up - I think you might be right in that respect - based on the fact that he had so many versions really illustrates that he was trying to deliver the best. I hadn't really thought about it that way...and now that I think about it even more - I mean, all those versions - he was probably trying to iron it all out, and old age got the best of him :( I mean, some of the information may be useful - I don't know :huh: I'm torn - because I can't stop reading it :hyper: even if it makes me more confused lol

[Lady Galadriel]

**bows to IronHill Dwarfs** You have said what I have never had the nerve to say. If I had received good advice before I purchase BOLT 1 & BOLT 2, I would have never purchased them. It just so happened that I got the advice afterward. Consequently, I just purchased the later books: Peoples of Middle Earth & Morgoth's Ring. In fact, some readers even recommend Morgoth's Ring as the "only" worthwhile purchase considering the costs of the hardcover editions. I think I purchased mines for $20 upward.

Anyway, I would say that if you want to learn about Tolkien's earlier ideas, well then, get the entire series. For myself, I would rather learn more about the work he completed after the published versions or information that "adds" value to the existing canonical works. Although, after Charmander spoke about the Lays, I think I want to purchase that one too.

Ithildiel Noldoron...hooray! lol You have to read the Debate of Finrod & Andreth. It makes me cry. Actually, its more like a debate of immortality -vs-mortality.

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

Well, I too have to agree...I was never interested in the versions Tolkien himself discarded...or toyed with in his attempt to make his history even better! THe Lost Tales really confused me...A LOT, interesting though they were-I had to go back to the Silmarillion to untangle some of the things I had spent so much time getting straight to begin withlol-but I really like book 10 and I liked book 5, mainly because of the early Quenya and Sindarin dictionary near the end of the book...

But I do wish he had finished all those stories... :(

[Lady Galadriel]

lol That sounds like me Ithildiel Noldoran. I actually had to write notes when I read the Silmarillion. I still cant get Beren, Tuor, Turin, and several others relations straight. I think Rian and Morwen were cousins...and I know Tuor is golden hair from his father's side of the family...which is Hador or something...its very entangled...

Then to undo all that work by reading BOLT which gets me confused. Not the mention the children of the Valar and so on...confusing..

[IronHills Dwarf]

**bows to IronHill Dwarfs** You have said what I have never had the nerve to say. If I had received good advice before I purchase BOLT 1 & BOLT 2, I would have never purchased them. It just so happened that I got the advice afterward. Consequently, I just purchased the later books: Peoples of Middle Earth & Morgoth's Ring. In fact, some readers even recommend Morgoth's Ring as the "only" worthwhile purchase considering the costs of the hardcover editions. I think I purchased mines for $20 upward.

Anyway, I would say that if you want to learn about Tolkien's earlier ideas, well then, get the entire series. For myself, I would rather learn more about the work he completed after the published versions or information that "adds" value to the existing canonical works. Although, after Charmander spoke about the Lays, I think I want to purchase that one too.


I managed to get quite conversant in the Sil, so going into the book store and picking up Lost Tales just didn't seem worth it. The whole HoME series seemed to me a bit of a farce, attempting mind reading with a dead man. Tolkien said often enough that he himself hadn't "discovered" certain portions of his stories. I guess what bugged me the most were the so called Tolkien scholars who that they could interpret a comma in a rough draft from 1937 as some revelation about the Noldor (yes that's an exaggeration of course) Forget all the influences on his work from this world, we're dealing with an imagination, something fairly intangible.

The real value to the Sil is that it is ordered, makes sense, and interconnects. After reading Clide Kilby's book on his work on the Sil with Tolkien I got even more of a feel for how often Tolkien would revise edit and worry about what he was writing. Christopher in my opinion has done more harm than good in some ways by dragging out every last scrap of the man's confidential creative writing.

That said the book on the peoples of middle-earth is one in particular I'm looking forward to getting my hands on. :)

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

lol That sounds like me Ithildiel Noldoran. I actually had to write notes when I read the Silmarillion. I still cant get Beren, Tuor, Turin, and several others relations straight. I think Rian and Morwen were cousins...and I know Tuor is golden hair from his father's side of the family...which is Hador or something...its very entangled...

Then to undo all that work by reading BOLT which gets me confused. Not the mention the children of the Valar and so on...confusing..

lol Me, too! I kept notes and then...I read Lost Tales and I got confused again!! :blush: I still can't get all the Sil names right, btw, nor the genealogies!

And...I agree with you, IronHillsDwarf...I've said it before, I am not a big fan of...so-called scholars who seek to find symbolism where it is non-existent and dissect literature to its most basic components...I love literature and Tolkien for what it is...a beautiful magical story that makes me travel to a world I love...

[Lady Galadriel]

Dont you think the Silmarillion was depressing? lol I love it nonetheless. lol

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

Well, I love it too, but it is a bit sad! :cool: And I was quite discouraged when I first started reading it-all the names and places :rolleyes: -but as I kept reading, I loved it more and more!! :grin:

[Lady Galadriel]

I remember reading and thinking that Tolkien was crazy. lol The geographical descriptions are so detailed. lol

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

lol I though so too...All the details he put into his story...the maps are as exact as any RL geography atlas I've ever seen! :grin:

[Lady Galadriel]

To be honest, I hate geography, and I was it really daunting to read all of his descriptions. lol Just tell me something is in the east, west, north, or south. lol But I respect his dedication to the creation of his world.

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

lol I hate geography, too...It was never my favourite topic, but I liked the fact Tolkien made such a detailed geography for his world! :)

[Lady Galadriel]

Hey, you remember when Curufin and his brother held Luthien at Nargothrond? How is it that she can overpower Sauron and not them? lol

[Charmander]

Not just Sauron - didn't she put a spell on the entire court of Morgoth? Maybe she didn't have her magics together for those two lol

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

lol That is a really good question...Luthien in that instance was a true..damsel in distress, wasn't she? :grin:

[Lady Galadriel]

lol Yes. Maybe its like Charmander said...maybe it comes and goes. AFterall, when Beren and her were attacked by them at a later time, Huan had to come to their rescue again.

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

Or maybe it took a certain amount of power, so it couldn't be used all the time!

[Lady Galadriel]

So, do you think Huan was infatuated with Luthien? lol But then again, he was loyal to Beren too.

[Charmander]

I sometimes wondered about Huan - he seemed to want to be more than just man's best friend :naughty: lol. I felt really sad when he died - he sacrificed so much for the two of them :(

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

lol But he was'nt a simple dog...wasn't he a Maiar of some degree? :blush:

[Lady Galadriel]

I wonder if he will be reborn in Valinor. I think he was one of the Valar’s dog.

OMG..we posted at the same time. I think he was Orome's dog. He was a valar, I believe.

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

Yes, he was Orome's hunting dog...and actualy a Maia who served him!So he was more than a dog! :grin:

[Lady Galadriel]

lol I actually meant that Orome was one of the valar. lol

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

lol :blush: We posted at the same time!lol lol

[Lady Galadriel]

Okay, so Huan definitely was a Maiar?

Also, I think I read in UT that Gandalf/Olorin had Manwe's favor. All these characters are so interconnected. Look at it, Olorin use to be in Lorien with Melian....and Melian is Elrond's thrice great grand mother or something like that. ;)

[Charmander]

God - I have got to finish reading all these histories! I'm assuming that UT is Unfinished Tales? Huan was more than a dog :huh:? I need to do more reading before posting in here again notworthy

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

I checked up on it...Huan was definitely a Maia...as was Olorin(Gandalf :grin: in Middle Earth) and Saruman too-whose Maia name I can't remember right now! :blush:

And I always felt a bit that if I looked deep enough, I'd find everyone in ME was somehow related to someone else! :p

EDIT: Don't worry, Charmander!:smooch: I think we are all learning here...and I find that incredible!! :grin:

[Lady Galadriel]

God - I have got to finish reading all these histories! I'm assuming that UT is Unfinished Tales? Huan was more than a dog :huh:? I need to do more reading before posting in here again notworthy

You just have not read the Silmarillion. That is all. I have barely read HoME. But I have read the Sil.

[Charmander]

Maybe we should start a new game - seven degrees of...Bilbo, I don't know lol

To be fair - I think I'm going to have to read it multiple times to figure it out - I think reading HoME first was probably a mistake ;)

[Lady Galadriel]

lol I cant answer that for you...but then again, maybe it would have been best. It would have laid a better foundation.

[Charmander]

I got HoME as a gift, I thought it wouldn't hurt...silly charmander, trix are for kids! At least I should finish it soon - I give it another week or so - it's too dark to read in the mornings on the way to work :(

[Lady Galadriel]

Whadahell are you commuting on? I take an Express Bus and that have lights. The trains have lights as well.

[Charmander]

I don't know if you've ever heard of this - but I 'slug' to work. I-95 goes right into the city and the HOV lanes require three people per car, minus hybrids. So I get into random cars with people - kind of like car pooling - but there are generally no lights in the cars - for reading, I mean :mmmm: On a bright note I think I'm really getting the hang of all these smilies lol ;)

[Lady Galadriel]

Oh, okay I see. Well, then sleep.

But the Sil would have been good to read first.

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

lol And it will take a couple of readings to get everything right in the Silmarillion! ;)

[Charmander]

It's funny you should mention sleep - and this is why I don't take the bus anymore - I fell asleep and when I woke up they yelled out the wrong stop and I ended up walking about ten plus blocks to get to work lol - I could now, but when you're riding with people you don't know sometimes it's best to pay attention - a little ;)

I think both of you said you had to keep notebooks to keep everything straight - I'll be sure to have one handy when I finally start reading it ;)

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

lol Keeping a notebook for names and little details you don't want to lose track of is a good idea!:thumbs:

And I got the same with buses when I was in the university... :blush: I enede up in the wrong place!mecry

[Lady Galadriel]

Lucky me then. After the tunnel, I know its time to wake up...the next stop would be mine.

yes, a notebook is a must for the Sil. That is, if you want to retain the information well.

Hey, of the Valar, who do you like the best? And the elves as well?

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

Hm...of the Valar I would choose Lorien...master of Dreams...I don't know why, though, I just liked him and his province! :)

Elves...do you mean Silmarillion or all elves?

[Lady Galadriel]

I meant race of elves. But then again, it is hard for me to choose between them and somewhat unfair. We mostly know about the Noldor elves.

For the valar, I like Manwe for his compassion, Aule for his wisdom, Ulmo for his kindness, Nienna for her pity, Tulkas for his bravery, Yuvanna for her creativity, and I cant remember Lorien well. lol

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

lol Well...one side of the Noldor was a good side... I liked Fingolfin..but I also liked Feanor, I admired his spirit...though for all his greatness he allowed himself to be manipulated by Morgoth! :rolleyes:

[Lady Galadriel]

Dont forget it was because of his "thirst" for knowledge. ;)

Do you really dislike any character besides Morgoth & Sauron? I love Turin even though his pride was his doom. What about when he accidentally killed Beleg? :(

[Charmander]

That was most tragic - an accidental killing - I'm trying to think of a literary equivalent and I keep coming back to Hamlet with Polonius, in Act three I think...behind his mother's curtains or something. But it was most unfortunate - it initially turned me off from Turin - but as the story progresses it got better, and then more sad :(

I didn't care for Ungolweinte - I'm certain I didn't spell that right, but the spider that destroyed the two trees...

[Lady Galadriel]

I think it is Ungoliath...but perhaps your spelling is an earlier version of the name.

I loved Turin all the time. His story is a tragedy. Even when he accidentally killed Beleg, I am sure Beleg immediately forgave him. :(

[Laurelin]

Hi guys! I finally got the first 4 books of HoME!!! :whoohoo: I guess I have lots of reading ahead of me, eh? lol

Yeah the story of Turin was sad but awesome. When he killed Beleg I nearly died myself. Though it was an accident.

[Charmander]

Glad to hear it :thumbs:! Try not to get too confused though ;)! I find the multiple versions a little hard to follow - but that might just be me lol

[Lady Galadriel]

Hi Laurelin. You didnt say which ones you got. ;)

Yes. Beleg and Turin had such a close relationship. I felt so sorry for Turin. Could you imagine killing your own best friend?

[Charmander]

It was a case of mistaken identity, right? I mean, he thought he was an orc or something? It is sad - but I almost feel more sorry for Niena - the sister he ends up marrying, she commits suicide in the Silver Bowl I think...

[Lady Galadriel]

Do you mean Silverlode?

Tragedy followed Turin. I dont think his life was ever happy. Thingol was a good father to him though.

[Laurelin]

Hi Laurelin. You didnt say which ones you got. ;)

Yes. Beleg and Turin had such a close relationship. I felt so sorry for Turin. Could you imagine killing your own best friend?
Oh yeah...I guess I didn't, did I? :blush: Oopsie. I got Shadow Returns, Treason of Isengard, War of the Ring and End of the 3rd Age.

[Lady Galadriel]

But arent you an elf lover? If so, you have to get Morgoth's Ring. :grin: Come on, Morgoth's Ring.... lol

[Laurelin]

lol Oh yes...everyone knows I'm an Elf lover, especially of Legolas. :blush: I'm dying to get Morgoth's ring, but alas...I have to order it. *sigh*

[Aletheia]

Hiya! i just got the HoME....cant wait to read them :grin: Im finnishing a re-read of the Sil, though, so it might take a while ;)

~Leia:rose:~

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

lol Oh yes...everyone knows I'm an Elf lover, especially of Legolas. :blush: I'm dying to get Morgoth's ring, but alas...I have to order it. *sigh*


lol As am I!:naughty: And I just got Morgoth's Ring..and reading as fast as I can!It seems to be less confusing than the BOLT1&2!:whoohoo: for that!! lol

[Lady Galadriel]

Gosh, you are gonna finish it before I begin. Actually, I consult it from time to time. Like, there is this whole chapter on re-birth. And the confirmation that elven women carry their child for 12 months. And that childbirth takes a greater toll on the elven mother than the mortal mother. Its an awesome read. Oh, and elves can tell if another elf is attached (in love) by just looking in their eyes. lol

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

So romantic..:love: Only read about 100pages so far!! :p I hope to read faster today and tomorrow,I've got a slight cold, so I won't go out! :(

[Lady Galadriel]

And you forgot another important hindrance - this website... lol Too much time spent posting on it. lol

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

To quote the book of Moria: "We cannot get out! We cannot get out!lol

[Lady Galadriel]

lol Yeah. Addiction isnt good though...I had to actually do some work for the past several hours. My conscience bothers me at times. lol

Hey, and another thing, people should not hold it against you that you love elves. It seems to me that Tolkien loved them too.

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

lol I know...I feel pretty addicted too! Ilove everyone here!*:smooch: everyone* And I do neglect work often enough too! :blush:

did you think Tolkien favoured elves too? I always felt they were his favourite, especially after Silmarillion...

[Lady Galadriel]

I think he loved them because they represented a "better" being. Men have freewill but not elves. The Sil said that. lol Some people think that its wrong to think that elves are better than men, but Tolkien makes it so apparent that they are "supposedly" better, that its silly to argue about it. They are fairer, wiser, more skilled, artistic, stronger, more agile, etc. No man could have survived the crossing of the Helacrux. Even the valar blames the evil acts of some elves on the marring of Arda. What does that tell you? Its like Tolkien tried to make them into perfect beings.

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

Hm..perfect beings...not sure about that... ;) Though it does make some sense. Elves represent a magical race to me, wise and fair and mythical! :blush:

[Lady Galadriel]

The key word is "tried." They are certainly imperfect. ;)

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

True...tried and wisened by all the trials... :)

[Lady Galadriel]

Ithil- maybe I should expound further just in case anyone else is reading this thread. Consequently, I do not mean to say that the life of an elf is more valuable than that of men. Each life I value the same. However, as in life, there are people who excel at more things than others. To me it seemed that Tolkien attributed "better" qualities to the elves. Example: he wrote that elves are rarely swayed by desires of the body alone...unlike, possibly, men. He made that fairer, wiser, artistic, and more skilled. I reiterate, I am not saying that elves are more estimable than men. ;)

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

I'll have to agree with you, Lady Galadriel...about the elves! I still wish the Professor had writen even more about them, though! :blush:

Which reminds me...what about hobbits? I never read anything in the Sil. about how and by whom they were created! :( In fact, they are never mentioned, as if they didn't even exist till the 3rd Age!!

[Lady Galadriel]

lol True. Maybe they appeared in the third age.

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

I thought they were supposed to have existed for as long as the other races...but we know so little about them... :blush:

[Lady Galadriel]

Hhmm! Well maybe they evolved from men...so in that way they existed as long as the ages. lol Faulty reasoning, I know. lol

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

Well, I've read a theory they were a branch of the human race, but I always thought they were a separate race...and I wondered who of the Valar might have made them...

[Lady Galadriel]

I see what you mean. Maybe if their race was not perpetuated through the years, we might have been able to look at them in terms of midgets. However, it continues through the years, hence giving a feeling of a separate race. I dont think the valar made them...since they are, afterall, considered men. Oh, but the stoors too, were something like them by nature. But I guess its a different race of men...like say the dunedain who lived way beyond the years of average men.

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

Hm...so they could just be a branch of the race of men?It is a possibility, I think...else Tolkien would have mentioned them as he did the dwarves... ;)

But I always thought they might be made by Yavanna...being creatures that loved the earth and nature and farmers...a bit opposite to dwarves, who were miners and saw the earth as the keeper of secret treaures they had to dig up... :blush:

[Lady Galadriel]

Nah, they are indeed men, but a different race. Remember, there was much shame in what Aule did. I dont think that anyone esle with brave that. It felt like an act of disobedience. Of course, Morgoth made his fair share of vile creatures.

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

Hm...yes, I remember that! Aule was really told off for the dwarves! :p

But...Morgoth had no respect for the Valar or Iluvatar, did he? So he was bent on his own purposes not caring about anything but his own agenda!!!

[Lady Galadriel]

Yeah...Aule was really told off instead...in a kind of gentle way. I think the creation of dwarves was seen like an act of pride too.

Morgoth, yeah, he could pretty much do what he wants. Look how he was wrecking havoc on the good works of Arda in the very beginning. From the music of Ainur, he already showed his potential for discord. If I was Illuvatar I would have kicked him out long time. lol

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

True...I would have also kicked him out int othe Void long ago...and prevent the worse from happening! lol

[Lady Galadriel]

I am sure that illuvatar already foresaw what Morgoth was going to do but he allowed it to occur. Maybe something like Mandos. :rolleyes:

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

It was all probably meant to happen...planned even like this from the beginning...that's what I think, too!

[Lady Galadriel]

Ithil- What about the kinslaying? How did you like Feanor then? :(

[Gwaihir]

It was all probably meant to happen...planned even like this from the beginning...that's what I think, too!
I agree... After the Music of the Ainur, Iluvatar did say that the one who attempts alter the music will only find out in the end that he was an instrument in devising something wonderful in the end.

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

Ithil- What about the kinslaying? How did you like Feanor then? :(


Well...that was when I totally lost appreciation in Feanor... :rolleyes: What he did was terrible...as was his burning the ships at Losgar, stranding Fingolfin in the ices of Helcaraxe!

And Gwaihir...I think Iluvatar knew of Melkor's wishes even before Melkor himself realised it! :blush:

[Lady Galadriel]

Well...that was when I totally lost appreciation in Feanor... :rolleyes: What he did was terrible...as was his burning the ships at Losgar, stranding Fingolfin in the ices of Helcaraxe!

If that is not a testimony to how much Feanor hated his brothers, I dont know what else. I thought it was so evil of them to kill the Teleri for their boats. :(

And Gwaihir...I think Iluvatar knew of Melkor's wishes even before Melkor himself realised it! :blush:

I agree. Hey, in the BOLT 1, it almost appeared as though Melkor feared Tulkas...I thought that was funny. lol

[Rhianon]

:( I have only read the ones that pertain to LOTR. I find it very fascinating how the Professor was constantly rewriting things when he felt disattisfied with the way the work was progressing on the story.

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

Well, I don't really think he hated his brothers; he did know, however, how opposite Fingolfin was to his behaviour and did not want to risk dissension among the already disturbed after the Alqualonde genocide Noldor...that's why, I think, he burnt the ships! But the massacre at Alqualonde...he sealed his and his family's fate there! After that, there was no going back! :(

And, Rhia...I so wish Tolkien ahd managed to finish all his stories...I think that would have been fantastic :grin: !

[Charmander]

Good to see you in hear Rhianon! I almost wish I had that kind of work ethic! Where I wanted things to be perfect - man would I be angry with my son for publishing things that weren't final verymad! But that might just be me lol! I haven't picked up HoME since some time last week - I'll get on it right away!

[Lady Galadriel]

But I remember feeling that Feanor's act in setting the boats ablaze was very malevolent. I think it was the way it was written.

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

Well, it was malevolent...but purposely made and narrated in a light unfavourable for Feanor! :(

[Lady Galadriel]

Well, it was malevolent...but purposely made and narrated in a light unfavourable for Feanor! :(

Gosh, Ithil, you sound just like an English teacher. :grin: And you do have a point. :)

[Laurelin]

lol Yes she does on both points Lady G. ;)

[Charmander]

Before I forget Laurelin :birthday:! Our good friend Ithil does sound like quite the teacher :thumbs:! Does that mean that you think Professor Tolkien wanted us to dislike Feanor? :mmmm: interesting...

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

:blush: I guess I do sound like a teacher...but only because I am!:naughty:

And I think Tolkien did want us to dislike Feanor...his pride at least... ;)

[Laurelin]

Aw thanks Char! :smooch:

Yep, our lovely Ithil is in fact a teacher! :hooray: :smooch:

[Lady Galadriel]

lol Okay, I already posted this on the bday thread but here goes:

:birthday: Laurelin :rock: Hope you had a wonderful day. **drinks all around**

You know what was interesting too? The estrangement between Galadriel and Feanor. I remember Tolkien wrote that he begged her for three strands of hair from her head and she refused it of him. Hmmm!

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

Yeah!!!:whoohoo: I have to post that here, too!:birthday: Laurelin!!!!

And perhaps Galadriel somehow sensed the "evil" in Feanor, and did not realy like him to begin with... ;)

[Lady Galadriel]

Well if someone treats your father like dirt I suppose you would feel the same way. :grin:

[Laurelin]

Lady G and Ithil...you're both too sweet! :smooch:

Yep, I think I'd feel that way too. I'd be miffed at someone treating my father like dirt even if he was a "pot stirer" and evil. I'd still have some love/sympathy for him.

[Lady Galadriel]

You are welcome, Laurelin. Bdays should always be special. :blush:

I think we feel the same ambivalence that you do toward Feanor. ;)

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

I was never able to determine if I considered Feanor a villain or simply a victim of circumstance...therefore basically a victim of his own pride and not truly wicked!:huh:

*hugs both Laur and Lady Galadriel* Group hug again!:smooch:

[Charmander]

Good news! I've finally finished book five of HoME :hooray:!! So I'll be starting on the Sil today and might actually have something subtantive to say from here on out lol ;)

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

*huggles* Way to go, Charmander!:whoohoo: and I'm almost done with Morgoth's Ring!! :grin:

[Charmander]

And how is it? I don't think you've given us any details :nono:! The eytomologies at the end of book five are copeious! I only skimmed them notworthy

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

Well, it's pretty interesting...I loved the section on customs of the Eldar-as if I wouldn't!lol-and...everything so far!! :grin:


And I loved the etymologies in book5, too!:whoohoo: I was learning Quenya when I got that part of HoME... ;)

[Charmander]

I just wish Christopher Tolkien was more prudent with his decisions about what to include - it seems like he just grabbed a stack of papers and started publishing them. I mean, the commentaries are interesting - but reading the same story again and again :snooze:

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

I know...but I always thought Christopher just did that..took all his father's documents, did some rudimentary editing and published them! :blush:

[Lady Galadriel]

And that is exactly why I dont intend to purchase any more of the books that are in the early part of the series. Waste of my money. I really dont see the point of me reading earlier drafts of the stories. I, however, very much see the point of reading the later drafts. It is synonymous with the thought that the writer was obviously seeking to "perfect" his existing stories.

Okay, did Maglor die? mecry Wasnt he heard singing upon the coast at nights in the Western part of Middle Earth? Oh, what a beautiful voice he must have too. mecry

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

You have a point...I only have BOLT 1 and 2 from the early parts..and as I have alreadysaid, tey only manged to relly confuse me and make me re-read the Silmarillion again, to get everything straight! :blush:

[IronHills Dwarf]

We don't really know what happened to Maglor. He just wandered off singing of his lose and as I recall was never seen again. A bit more romantic than Maedhros in terms of his end in the story.

[Lady Galadriel]

Gosh, I cant remember how Maedhros died...did he die by falling into the water?

Oh, an Maglor's voice, they say, was beautiful...but not more beautiful than Thingol's mistrel (hopefully thats the correct name). lol

[IronHills Dwarf]

Maedhros threw himself and his sil into a pit of fire (could not stand the pain of holding it).

Daeron was Thingol's minstrel. :)

[Lady Galadriel]

Maedhros threw himself and his sil into a pit of fire (could not stand the pain of holding it).


Strange! I never remembered him doing that. Wow! I just read it. He threw himself into a chasm filled with fire. I dont know how I failed to remember such a horrible death. :rolleyes:

[Gwaihir]

Yes, it's a terrible way to die! And it was so sad because I actually liked Maedhros and Maglor, despite what they did. If only they had given up that dreadful Oath when Eonwe told them to!

[Lady Galadriel]

I know. Did you think it really had a hold on them? Or, was it pride?

[Charmander]

Pride seemed to be the vice of choice for quite a few people in HoME lol I imagine that more than anything held them to their course.

Haven't seen you around as often as usual Lady G :wave: tell me you're not doing, dare I say it...work?!?

[Lady Galadriel]

Yeah...I have been MIA. Its our Audit time...and I really should not be online. lol Okay, I am gone.

[Charmander]

Well, it's been lonely without you :( but work is the higher calling for most of us lol - I think I hear it right now :huh: maybe I can block it, there we go - much, much better ;)

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

I think it was pride and the wish not to abandon their father and their people that made Maedhros and Maglor take the oath...and they ended up sharing the tragedy as well!mecry

[Laurelin]

I gotta agree. I think it was mainly pride. You know the saying "Pride goeth before the fall." ;)

[Lady Galadriel]

What about "honor?" Men back then took "honor" very seriously. They gave their word to their father and they would rather die than forfeit their honor. :)

[Charmander]

I think one could argue that pride and honour are interwoven in this instance. I mean, they gave their word, and their pride would not allow them to dishonour what they swore. Even if they knew that what they swore was not the best avenue to pursue. I'm thinking of the series of books by James Clavell - the first one was Shogun - in it the main character has told all his workers not to touch something that he had killed while hunting or be killed - well the meat goes bad and they workers are forced to destroy the animal and then the person who destroyed it was killed - by being true to their master's words they ended up keeping the honour but the vice was the pride of the master forcing them to do something that didn't make sense as much as it could have, or should have - I think that makes at least some sense ;)

[Lady Galadriel]

Yes, most assuredly pride could be interwoven with honor. They are, however, two separate things. Pride is the value we have for self (although in some cases there can be pride for an independent thing, like your country)and honor is more akin to how we are perceived by others in good deeds, respect..etc. Now, I am not sure exactly whether Maedhros and Maglor were more swayed by a possible pride for their father's works...or the "honor" of their word/oath. Afterall, when Tolkien described their premeditations before their attempts to take the Sil...he always said that the oath was upon them or the oath worked ever to create discord or unsettle them...or something like that.

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

Well, I'l have to mention hubris again...the extreme arrogance of Feanor and the Noldor who followed him challenging the Valar...their oath was what sealed their fate. Excessive pride led to hubris, the oath sealed it and their sense of honour-erroneous, as it led to the slaughter of Alqualonde, an act of no honour at all, as was the burning of the ships in Losgar-as expected led to their demise... :(

[Laurelin]

Honor, I'm sure, played a part in it. In those times I think son's were honor bound to their families. I always thought Maedhros and Maglor to be very prideful elves. Well, it seemed to me that the whole line of Feanor was a bit prideful to a point, at least imho. It made them interesting!

[IronHills Dwarf]

I think you have to consider another angle to the whole pride thing.

Remember that the silmarils were Fëanor's life work. Now remember who had let Melkor roam around. Fëanor's feelings to my way of reading it where simple. The Valar had offered paradise, but instead one of their own first killed his father then robbed him, then dispoiled the trees. Fëanor must have reasoned that the Valar couldn't and wouldn't do anything about this (doubtless a slander but a logical one). I mean the Valar didn't exactly look so wise and all knowing after this little episode. The Valar basically were the 'law' establishment and when they failed Fëanor didn't trust the system (to put it in modern terms) thus his oath so that this would never ever happen again without a struggle. Noone would hold a Silmaril unless they had a right to it.

[Lady Galadriel]

Well, I'l have to mention hubris again...the extreme arrogance of Feanor and the Noldor who followed him challenging the Valar...their oath was what sealed their fate. Excessive pride led to hubris, the oath sealed it and their sense of honour-erroneous, as it led to the slaughter of Alqualonde, an act of no honour at all, as was the burning of the ships in Losgar-as expected led to their demise... :(

You all have wonderful points....Ithil, Laurelin, IronHill Dwarf...

Ithil- I agree...with your surmise for the actions of Feanor in Alqualonde...and Valinor, which is, I guess, a different discussion to the Maglor/Maedhros one.

IronHills Dwarf- I like your conclusion. I felt that same way about the Valar...I mean, how in the world did they allow themselves to be deceived by Melkor? I mean, I know "higher beings" have this "hands-off" attitude toward life, but it was simply folly for them to have ever trusted Melkor again.

Also, when you mentioned about Feanor's loss of confidence in the Valar and Valinor, it reminded me of Finwe's problem as well. He was supposedly the first in Valinor to experience unhappiness because of the passing of Miriel...so maybe Feanor also lost faith in the serenity of Valinor as well.

Both you and Ithil have valid points. But Feanor indeed had a big hubris and he possessed the charisma to sway the host of the Noldor that followed him. Poor elves! Its funny...if Mandos had pronounced a doom like that to me...I would be heading back to Valinor as fast as my feet could take me. lol

[Lady Éowyn]

Would you mind if I make an interruption, guys: Where could I get the Complete History of Middle Earth and how much does it cost?

[Laurelin]

A complete HoME... Well, Borders bookstore has them in bundles but I haven't found the entire set bundled. Only 4-5 books at a time. Costs vary from place to place and if its paper back or hard back. Anyway, you might try here: Amazon/Borders (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0345466454/qid=1105816770/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/104-0600198-9119102) and its priced at about $22.00 for the first 5 books in paper back.

The rest of the series looks like you have to buy them individually unless you find them bundled at a bookstore. Go to Amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com) and do a search for History of Middle Earth under books and you can see the rest of them there. Hope this helps! ;)

Galadriel - I have to agree with you... I would have ran back to Valinor too. lol

[Lady Éowyn]

Thanks a lot, Laurelin. That helped.

[IronHills Dwarf]

The series is also bundled into hard cover under the series name of "the Complete History of Middle-earth".

There are three volumes.

number 1 includes books 1-5 of HoME

number 2 has books 5-9 of HoME

and of course number 3 has 10-12

I'm reading through volume three right now. If you've read this thread you'll realize that most people are happiest just buying volume three (or just getting the paper backs of 10-12). I paid about 55-60 USD for mine.

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

I always thought the Valar should not have been deceived by Melkor a second time..and neither should Feanor, but Melkor -played on his pride and managed to get to him, almost without the elf realising it till it was, of course, too late...But the Valar, being superior beings, should have seen all of this coming; unless, of course, deep down,they wanted to forgive Melkor and eventually come to consider them one of them again...

btw, all 12 vols of HoME are about 125 euro here... :(

[Laurelin]

Thanks IHD! That helps a great deal too. I agree, the last three are the most interesting to me too! lol

Ithil, I always wondered why the Valar decided to trust Melkor yet again also. :huh: I mean they should have known better! Still you have a point. Perhaps they wanted to trust him so much so that they simply were caught off guard...again.

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

Caught off guard...twice? :p That was definitely not too wise of them; but I guess it might be safe to assume the Valar, although immortal and all-powerful had their own flaws as well, right?:huh: