Turning Point of the War of the Ring

[Orc]

Historians typically name a battle or campaign within a war as the defining moment when the tide of war either changed hands, or (in hindsight) became enevatable that one side would most likely win.

For example: The Battle of Gettysburg (U.S. Civil War), Battle for Midway Island (W.W. II Pacific Theater) etc.

At what point during the War of the Ring, did Sauron's forces reach their 'high water' mark? Was there a turning point at all, or was the entire war depandant of the destruction of the One Ring?

[Gil-Galad]

It is hard to say, seeing as most ofgoods campain was a ruse to allow the ring to get to mordor. I dont thind there was a turning point, because of the strength of mordor. They had at least 2 times as many men (or orcs, you might say) as rohan and gondor. Rohan and Gondor would have fallen in the attack on Mordor if the ring was not destroyed or they would have fallen after seiges'. They would have lost the first thing i mentioned due to mordors strengt, same with the last thing I mentioned. In the seiges they would have also died due to hunger. ONe of my favorite sayings i read in a book and it is "any fool can raise an army, but they start to come into trouble around dinnertime"

P.S. Got that from a series called the belgariard. It is a good series.

[Fatty]

Well I am inclined to think that after gandalf's return that the fate of Sauron was sealed. since he seems well aware that the tide has turned and that they will win. Bubbling with laughter etc.....

[Illuvatar]

I would have to say...

To me that's when the whole battle started to turn, both on the field and also at about this time the hobbits were gettin close to achieving their goal.

I also believe that there ARE pivotal events in a battle, it is usually a culmination of a few events happening at the same time that win the war!!
:cool:

[Fatty]

Yes well I think that was a set back, though it would not have mattered without the ring being destroyed or being possesed by someone capable of using it.........Gandalf by Tolkien's admission the only one who could have actually contested use of it openly with Sauron.

I think that in the actual war Sauron coul dnot have lost. they might have one a few battles, but he had so much to throw at them. All the main characters acknowledge this predicament.

[Illuvatar]

Ahh...maybe, maybe not...It's not like he had dragons and balrogs or even werewolves at his command anymore at that point ya know? :naughty:

And with the return of the King, and the Ents taking care of Saruman, AND the loss of the Witch-King, the good guys would have defo enjoyed a swing of momentum!!

I just figured with the loss of the Witchking, it sorta as Tolkien was writing it, signaled the beginning of the end.

[Gil-Galad]

His loss was big but in my mind good still would have lost at that point due to the strenght of Saurons armys.

[PrinceImrahil]

Saruman's destruction and Rohan's coming to Gondor is the turning point in my opinion. It says at the begining of Chapter 6: The Battle of Pelenor Fields that the tides were turning and the storm was breaking before Sauron wanted it to.

[Beregond]

I don't completely agree with this, but watch the TT trailer on the main page. At the end when Gandalf returns, he says "I come to you at the turning of the tides" or something like that. Meaning that the turning point would be when Gandalf returns.

[Gil-Galad]

Well, that is a good point, but i will stick to my opionon that if the ring was not destroyed good would have lost. Did gandalf not say that to the captians of the west in th e chapter the last debate?

[A! Elbereth]

I agree with Beregond and Those of you talking about how Sauron would have won with all the defences he had? and all his weapons? But Ah! he did not win! obviously.... But.. So are you saying Tolkien should have made it seem more like Sauron was winning to make it seem more real... and then the ring be destroyed? or what? I'm confused

[A! Elbereth]

oooh ok i see what you are saying.... But of course they would have lost if the ring wasnt destroyed! Sauron was stronger than anything with that ring in existance

[Mirkgirl]

First I don't accept and will never accept the movie/trailer/etc as proof... that's what PJ saw as a moneymaker.

And if Frodo fails it won't be a battle of armies (which is most probably won by Sauron, but it wouldn't happen so who cares?) there would be Sauron regaining the ring and then... hearnoevil

so actually there is no battle, at least real battle, different from background to keep Sauron busy and give some hope

[Elentari]

Of course, every element of the story, from Gandalf's return to the defeat of the Witch-King, fits together like pieces in a puzzle to bring about a successful end to the battle, and we know that, ultimately, the destruction of the Ring is the event that actually won the war; but if we're talking specifically about the Battle of the Pellenor Fields, the precise turning point would have to be the arrival of King Theoden and the Host of Rohan, at the point where the Gates of Gondor have been destroyed, and the city is in danger of being overrun. After that, the clincher would be the arrival of Aragorn and Co. in the corsairs' ships.(IMHO):battle:

[Gil-Galad]

Nice points. If you break each battle down you can proabaly do that. Anyone want to try?

[Pil]

HARD TO DO! Orc could probably do it though! I have a book which does this already though so... :)

[Gil-Galad]

well... you stay out... we want new opinions ;)

[Gil-Galad]

sorry, i meant that as dont use ideas from the book, use your own ideas! I like them!

[Pil]

Thanx! :cuddles:

[Pil]

Gil-Galad! I can't answer your pm! Your inbox is full!!!! Clear yourself out mate! :p

[Bonos-Girl]

awwwww!!!

[Pil]

:) to all!

[Gil-Galad]

im sorry! Ill clean it! And please stop with the kissy smilies.

[Pil]

FINE YOU UNAPRECIATIVE.....MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!! verymad

Anyway :cuddles: is cuddles! Not kisses they're saved for sindarin...you're just jealous! lol....i mean....grrr :evil:

[Illuvatar]

Here is the topic folks!!!!!!!!

Turning Point of the War of the Ring
Historians typically name a battle or campaign within a war as the defining moment when the tide of war either changed hands, or (in hindsight) became enevatable that one side would most likely win.

For example: The Battle of Gettysburg (U.S. Civil War), Battle for Midway Island (W.W. II Pacific Theater) etc.

At what point during the War of the Ring, did Sauron's forces reach their 'high water' mark? Was there a turning point at all, or was the entire war depandant of the destruction of the One Ring?

[Gil Galad]

.... or rahter the events that happened about that time, Gandalf was affraid of Smaug, he reckoned that sauron would in time grow too strong for everyone even without the ring, and he needed a foothold of power in the north for the good guys.

then all cos of some lil hobbit, the ring is found, smaug gets killed and Erebor and Dale become strong again. and as off-shoots to this the Beornings get stronger, and (i think) Gandalf got the first seeds of doubt about saruman

[Flanyboy4]

I want to take a different tone kind of I think that the war was not defiantly lost if the ring wasn’t destroyed after all the armies of sauron lost heavily some 200,000 at Pelinor or that is what it says in a book I read. Anyway back to my point the forces of sauron were defeated 3,000 years ago with the last alliance and he had the ring then the only problem is that Gondor is now very weak and the elves are not what they once were. if the ring was hidden and not found (not smart because forces of evil would find it probably) but if it was say hidden and not found it would have been possible to destroy the armies of sauron then return to Mordor and destroy it with ease. Obviously the forces of men were outnumbered but what no one talks about it the elves and the dwarves. If you look in the appendixes you see that the army that attacked Minis Trith isn’t the only one that was the southern army and probably the largest one but you also here that the northern army attacked the men and dwarves at dale and they were defeated after Minis Tirith held. Also the woods of Lorin had been attacked 3 times and they failed each time. The appendixes also say that the elves in lorin could not have fallen to any force of saruon unless sauron went to lorin himself with the ring. This is because of the power of the eleven rings. If the elves and dwarves marched south they could have slowly withered away mordors forces while Aragon would have been crown and rallied the men in the north to his colors. It is still likely that saruon would have won but it is possible he could have lost. After all it isn’t possible to defeat saruon when he has the ring it was done before it is jus that no one is strong enough to do it.

[Gil Galad]

Well i think that the power of both Elves and Dwarves, and men too, had fallen quite allot during the 3rd age and so they would have had a hard job. but also if the Ring had not been found then Saurin would have bidded his time and prepared his forces beter then he was did. when Aragorn looked into the Palantir he scared sauron and so made him think that he had the Ring(if he hadnt have known of it being found he wouldnt have thought this) and so was a major treat and the forces of Mordor were unleashed prematurely.

if the Ring had remained hidden(or had been found and then was hidden successfully) then Sauron would have mustered a greater force then he did, and so all the kingdoms would have fallen one by one.

i dont think that the attacks on LothLorien were made with any real hope by sauron, but rather to keep them from aiding others

[Flanyboy4]

Agreed on what you just said but I must admit that in the back of the book were it does refer to the 3 assaults on lorian it seams to imply that the power of the elfin ring there it would not have been possible unless all the forces of mordor (200,000 plus) were unleashed on lorian then lorian would fall. Unless of course the ring returned to sauron. (Remember in Lorian there is still the elvin power of the elder days this magic is only outclassed by the magic of saurons ring. As to the strength of the assaults it says the woods of lorian were ravaged and seams to indicate that although they didn’t think they could win they assaults were still on a fair size. There was another large scale attack though remember the elfs and men in dale well they were attacked by what was called the northern army of sauron and the appendixes seam to indicate that is was smaller but still an army of decent size probably half of those attacking minis tirith.

[Gil Galad]

well it would have been near imposible for mere orcs or Men to take Lothlorien, no matter what there numbers i beleive, but if Sauron had had the time to muster his forces he would have eventually gained the Ring or atleast come himself against the woodland realm (after destroying all others, and bealeaguring it for a long time) and it would have eventually fallen

and you say 200,000 losses at pelanor, that is allota blood