Sword Fighting

[TrueSwordsman]

Well, it appears that the archery thread has been dominating the Armory for a long time now. I am sure it has been discussed before, but wanted to start a thread on sword fighting techniques; any fighting style from heavy medieval combat to fencing. I think a good topic to get the thread started would be fencing (light combat with a rapier) vs. the heavy combat of the SCA (both of which I have done). When applied correctly many of the modern fencing strategies work really well in heavy combat too.

Does any one have any thoughts, strategies, or tricks to defeating an opponent in sword combat that they would like to share?
:fight:
:dragon: :battle:

[IronHills Dwarf]

Well I have to admit I only play with wood (can't afford steel, though I'm thinking of forging up a couple of iron 'beaters'), which of course means I'm not accurately simulating balance etc..

But anyway ;) since I mostly wack it out with a friend who has allot of younger siblings I've had the chance to work against foes of widely varying stature which is quite challenging. Basically nobody IMHO opinion should rely on strength in swordplay, you start to get sloppy. Always have a combination worked out for every stroke you like to use, this means you are never at a loss for how to respond to a block. Never rely on a shield, again it makes you sloppy, I've seen guys using the shield more than the sword simply because it's easier to club someone with. I guess it trains you out of respecting the sword as much as one should.

Personally I'm a big fan of undercuts (i'm not up on all the "correct" lingo I'm afraid you fencing types will know) with a slash follow through moving to a vitals stab (usually works because the first two strokes are almost certain to get blocked, though the undercuts freak some people out)

[Aletheia]

My dad has two claymores, which I would very much like to learn how to weild!
I want to take lessons..but, um, not many ppl offer them (and most find it odd that a girl would want them)
But I really would like to swordfight;)
Right now I am just trying to build up my arm strength so that I can hold the hilt w/ a good enough grip!

~Leia:rose:~

[TrueSwordsman]

To build up your arm, wrist, and hand strength just start by swinging a broom handle. You can do all sorts of workouts with a simple stick that will transcend into metal swords (plus they are much safer).

In eastern martial arts they use “forms” to practice moves against invisible opponents. You can do the same. Start out by visualizing an enemy attack (it can even be an Orc if you wish). Then defend and counter attack with your sword sized stick. For example:

From your fighting stance visualize an Orc thrusting at your chest. Perry the attack pushing it to your right as you step forward with your left foot. Then with your forward momentum make an angled downward strike to the Orc’s neck/head area on his left side.

String several of these type of scenarios together. Once you string them together you can do them multiple times. With enough practice you will build speed, power, and train your muscles to respond in a desired manner. It will also train you to react to the visualized attacks without thinking, which could save your life.

[IronHills Dwarf]

I can't agree more, technique can be learned while "off" a sword proper. A good swordsperson isn't the strongest or the quickest but usually the most experienced or practiced.

[Olyanë]

Well, it appears that the archery thread has been dominating the Armory for a long time now. I am sure it has been discussed before, but wanted to start a thread on sword fighting techniques; any fighting style from heavy medieval combat to fencing. I think a good topic to get the thread started would be fencing (light combat with a rapier) vs. the heavy combat of the SCA (both of which I have done). When applied correctly many of the modern fencing strategies work really well in heavy combat too.

Does any one have any thoughts, strategies, or tricks to defeating an opponent in sword combat that they would like to share?
:fight:
:dragon: :battle:
Greetings fellow Blade Kin-- thank you Swordsman for this thread--to begin to answer the question with my own experience, personally I prefer heavy rattan combat, as opposed to traditional foil fencing, rapier etc--being SCA/Tuchux I love the feel of armour, and helm, running down the battlefield with my brothers and warrior wench at my side feeling the spirit of war flow through my veins and kicking some arse in armour like our ancient brethren as they defended their homes. I personally love the feeling of hiking through the woods hunting men/women and engaging in heavy combat, then at the end of the day yanking off my helm to share in the victory wine horn--
In my early days, some odd 14-15 years ago when I began my journey of swordsmanship, fencing was what I began with, and I feel I was pretty good at it, not great but good. I then discovered the Samurai arts, kendo/kenjitsu/bushido etc, which is my true niche/path--since it has evolved to SCA rattan combat.
It is my belief that like knowledge, life, universe and everything one should evolve to higher stages of learning with the sword, being one with it to put it simply. To truly know yourself, in line with your spiritual self, one should test the spirit in combat. If heavy rattan combat is not your thing, at least give it a shot, the feel the warrior flow through you as time does each day, is to understand the ancient days of legend and lore.
Perhaps I have gone on a bit of a philosophical bend here, my apologies--I agree that some of the fencing strategies (basic footwork is universal--helps balance and is similar to the kendo footwork in premise at least)-- fencing's basic parries and thrusts have given me also a good grounding is defense and offense, if you are going to go into heavy combat from fencing as I did, fencing provides alot to build upon, and in order to anything we must have the basics!
In the spirit of the warrior,
Olyanë

[Orc]

I want to take lessons..but, um, not many ppl offer them (and most find it odd that a girl would want them)

~Leia:rose:~

I certinaly don't find it all that odd, but then again I did meet my wife through fencing...

If you are in the US try United States Fencing Association (http://www.usfencing.org/). There is a lot of basic information as well as the ability to search for fencing clubs in your area.

Personally, I think staring out with olympic style sport fencing helps develop a lot of good basic techniques (especially footwork) can be picked up and carry over to any swordplay. If you pick it up, I'd recommend sabre of the three weapons as it is the only weapon that allows you to use the edge of the blade.

From there the sky is the limit. A reasonable amount of fencers go beyond the basic three weapons to explore other options from SCA to LARPs or studying other sword styles. Fencing clubs can be good places to network to find others with similar interests.

[IronHills Dwarf]

Greetings fellow Blade Kin-- thank you Swordsman for this thread--to begin to answer the question with my own experience, personally I prefer heavy rattan combat, as opposed to traditional foil fencing, rapier etc--being SCA/Tuchux I love the feel of armour, and helm, running down the battlefield with my brothers and warrior wench at my side feeling the spirit of war flow through my veins and kicking some arse in armour like our ancient brethren as they defended their homes. I personally love the feeling of hiking through the woods hunting men/women and engaging in heavy combat, then at the end of the day yanking off my helm to share in the victory wine horn--


I haven't had the chance to experience it in the same ways you obviously have, but from what I have done I can certainly agree with you. There's nothing quite like rising from your place in the tree line, pounding sword on shield, yelling, and racing towards the foe..... Just perfect.

[Aletheia]

Thank You all for your advice, I will look into the lessons ;)
plus I just found out the college Im transfering to offers fencing!!!

~Leia:rose:~

[Night Wolf]

LOL the SCA groups are hilarious...I've seen maybe one group in a SCA group attempting some open ward Silver swordsmanship but they made a hack of it. the rest was hack and bash with no focus or proper instruction visable (when they claimed all members with a steel blunt were well trained *cough*...but hey if your having fun.

I do Muso Jikiden Eishen Ryu Iaido, so japanese swordsmanship...but I dont fight anyone, its pure training and concentration on focus and control. I've had to take a break from all that though, cant wait to go back.

Aletheia, I recommend contacting http://www.thehaca.com/ as these guys will put you in contact with REAL pros...not SCA self professed professional swordsmen. These guys also have female members all around the USA, one of which I have seen in person defeat a man twice her size who was using a sword that was considerably larger then hers. She ironically fights in a long dress lol.

To those in SCA offended by this post its based on what I've seen of your federation...please save your money a little, to get historically correct gear isnt that expensive! and training can be sought from seminars ARMA hold every few months.

[Night Wolf]

Never rely on a shield, again it makes you sloppy, I've seen guys using the shield more than the sword simply because it's easier to club someone with. I guess it trains you out of respecting the sword as much as one should.

can a mod merge my posts?

anyhoo I had to address this, that goes against many many years of sword play ;) the sword should NEVER be used to parry, even in last resort you should use the side of the blade in a half-swording technique. The sheild is a critical piece of armor, sword play isnt about how good it looks bashing against another blade. its about killing your enemy QUICKLY!

[Olyanë]

LOL the SCA groups are hilarious...I've seen maybe one group in a SCA group attempting some open ward Silver swordsmanship but they made a hack of it. the rest was hack and bash with no focus or proper instruction visable (when they claimed all members with a steel blunt were well trained *cough*...but hey if your having fun.

I do Muso Jikiden Eishen Ryu Iaido, so japanese swordsmanship...but I dont fight anyone, its pure training and concentration on focus and control. I've had to take a break from all that though, cant wait to go back.

Aletheia, I recommend contacting http://www.thehaca.com/ as these guys will put you in contact with REAL pros...not SCA self professed professional swordsmen. These guys also have female members all around the USA, one of which I have seen in person defeat a man twice her size who was using a sword that was considerably larger then hers. She ironically fights in a long dress lol.

To those in SCA offended by this post its based on what I've seen of your federation...please save your money a little, to get historically correct gear isnt that expensive! and training can be sought from seminars ARMA hold every few months.


No offense taken, since I am technically not a member of the SCA, but the Tuchux, Wolverine Clan that was founded by Kenjitsu instructors, and its premise is just that, training, concentration and understanding of what your doing with the sword. Although there are alot of members that don't fight with a sword, like my warrior wench who fights with an axe---
I checked out your site and find it very interesting, if I may inquire are you on the east coast? Our blacksmith and clan kin are on Pennsylvania, who do exactly as you cite, historically correct arms and armour The Lonely Mountain Forge http://www.herenistarion.org

I have actually studied numerous bits of material on Muso Jikiden Eishen Ryu Iaido, also with my teacher in the Wolverine clan and is Miura Takeyuki Hanshi still its present grandmaster that you may know of?

ARMA is definately a place to check out, thank you for the reference for us all, we watched a program on the History Channel that featured them--I'm impressed by the extensive online historical manuals---thank you for the link, some of the texts I know of but were not able to get my hands on-- :grin:
In the spirit of the warrior
Olyane

[IronHills Dwarf]

can a mod merge my posts?

anyhoo I had to address this, that goes against many many years of sword play ;) the sword should NEVER be used to parry, even in last resort you should use the side of the blade in a half-swording technique. The sheild is a critical piece of armor, sword play isnt about how good it looks bashing against another blade. its about killing your enemy QUICKLY!

Hehe quite correct wolf, that's not only basic sword play it's basic sense. I think you misunderstood my post (since I never said a thing about using the sword to parry, and particularly nothing about using the edge ;)), of course if you have a shield it should be used, and I'm not above wacking the foe in the face with it if the chance arises. What bugs me is seeing a blade and buckler equipped chap dangling sword at side simply because it's easier to use the larger surface area of the shield as an offensive item, regardless of the fact that if combat was serious (and the steel sharp) he could end it with a well placed thrust. Which of course is what I meant by respecting the sword.

[Aletheia]

Thank you all for your excellent recomendations ;) I assure I will be looking into them all. Thats awsome about the woman who fights in a long dress (& kicks butt) :elfqueen:
Found out the college I attend next yr. offers fencing as an extracuricular activity :) Guess who signed up...;)
Happy sword fighting, ya'll!

~Leia:rose:~

[Nilion Elentano]

LOL the SCA groups are hilarious...I've seen maybe one group in a SCA group attempting some open ward Silver swordsmanship but they made a hack of it. the rest was hack and bash with no focus or proper instruction visable (when they claimed all members with a steel blunt were well trained *cough*...but hey if your having fun.

I do Muso Jikiden Eishen Ryu Iaido, so japanese swordsmanship...but I dont fight anyone, its pure training and concentration on focus and control. I've had to take a break from all that though, cant wait to go back.

Aletheia, I recommend contacting http://www.thehaca.com/ as these guys will put you in contact with REAL pros...not SCA self professed professional swordsmen. These guys also have female members all around the USA, one of which I have seen in person defeat a man twice her size who was using a sword that was considerably larger then hers. She ironically fights in a long dress lol.

To those in SCA offended by this post its based on what I've seen of your federation...please save your money a little, to get historically correct gear isnt that expensive! and training can be sought from seminars ARMA hold every few months.

I have to agree to some extent with some of the comments. But you have to bear in mind that a lot of people join these groups because they want to experience in a safer environment what it would be like to be involved in a situation such as those proposed in a RPG. By no means you can achieve mastery of any martial art or technique which involves the use of weapons when it also involves the elements that surround RPG.

I hope you don't take offence, but Iaido remains purely as techniques of fast sword drawing and delivering killing strikes. It's not a jutsu form nor it was used in battlefield.

I have great respect for the Oakenshott institute, which is why I went to research the HACA. However I have a lot (bit lot) of obsservations and doubts about the effectivity of the drills performed there. A lot of them are developed from Medieval combat manuals such as Talhoffer's, but I have a lot of trouble coming to terms with all the openings this guy offers when he starts his 'speed' drills. Then there are his cutting experiments. If he had bothered to research a bit of physics then he would have avoided embarrassing himself by breaking his Raven sword against a punch bag, and trust me that was waiting to happen. Western medieval swords have totally different uses to those gien by him in those cutting exercises, and that's why it would only cut through soft leather (it wouldn't cut anything else in the videos), or pierce (through nearly everything).

So as I said I have more than serious doubts about the HACA, but that is my opinion only.

One major reason why Western swordmanship is far more limited than eastern swordmanship is the lack of proven and established drills, which is nothing else than a kata in eastern techniques, blame that on the secrecy of medieval masters of arms.

No offense taken, since I am technically not a member of the SCA, but the Tuchux, Wolverine Clan that was founded by Kenjitsu instructors, and its premise is just that, training, concentration and understanding of what your doing with the sword. Although there are alot of members that don't fight with a sword, like my warrior wench who fights with an axe---


I hope you don't mind me asking which Ryu these Kenjutsu instructors come from? I have to ask since I'm a practicant myself of Katori Shinto Ryu.

*huge grin*

Talking swords and techniques is always good for the soul! :grin:

[Olyanë]

I hope you don't mind me asking which Ryu these Kenjutsu instructors come from? I have to ask since I'm a practicant myself of Katori Shinto Ryu.

*huge grin*

Talking swords and techniques is always good for the soul! :grin:
Wolf the Mighty aka Sensei John Hamilton, is the original founder of the Tuchux, which utilized bokken and shinai in its early days later adapting the rattan style of combat. His school is in Pittsburgh where some of his students i.e. Cobra, is a member of the Tuchux, and of which I have had the honor of facing in combat on last falls Wolverine Clan lope---
The ryu can be found here:
http://www.shorinnotoradojo.com/
Shorin No Tora Dojo
Shorin-Ryu Karate & Kobujutsu
Tenshin-Ryu Kenjutsu
1826 Babcock Blvd.
Pgh., PA 15209
(412) 821-8076

I know for a fact that the other founding members i.e. Ibex and Zenon have been student's of Wolf the Mighty's and have taught in the past (Zenon taught me this awesome bokken toss) but I am not sure where at currently--

In the Spirit of the Warrior,
Olyanë

[Nilion Elentano]

Well certainly nothing has to stop a practicant of any art from forming a group like the one you are in.

There's only one thing about Tenshin Ryu, and that is that I have never heard of one with that name. The only Ryu with Tenshin in the list of Ryu I know is the one I do. I said katori shinto ryu, but the full name is Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu

This being the site of my Sensei's sensei TSKSR (http://www.aikidojo.nl/ksr.html)

However there's one major issue with this particular ryu and it's the problems some Sensei have found themselves after all the scrolls were passed from the late Soke to Sensei Otake, a lot of people like to say that it renders any other Menkyo Kaiden (9th Dan instructors and you can only achieve 10) are not licensed to teach. However the title Menkyo Kaiden stands for Master of all forms, so at that level I don't think you need the scrolls or consent.

There's other people who teach katori without saying it is for fear of this, and I believe that your friend could be such a person. Not saying it's a bad thing, or a good thing , it just is ... what is most important is that the forms are being passed on correctly.

[Aletheia]

Hey just wanted to say thanks for the recomendations earlier about the swordfghting/fencing classes and stuff :)
I had my first lesson tonight and it was AWSOME veryhappy I spent 2 very fun (yet tiring) hours learning the basics and such....my arm is killing me, and I had the hardest time maintaining eye contact and not watching my opponents sword alone..but a few bloody nuckles later, i was doing much better! and it was so much fun!

~Leia:rose:~

[Elegost]

forgive me for asking.This has probably been said,but im too lazy to look :rolleyes: .What dose SCA stand for,and do they have a site?

[Aletheia]

SCA = Society for Creative Anachronism, and yup, they have a site (or two;)) although I am not sure of the address...now Im lazy too lol

~Leia:rose:~

[Elegost]

lol *Yawn*............................................ ........... :snooze:
Ive been looking around for a Swordfighting group(Preferably Two-handed sword fighting.)But there arnt many around East TN :(

[IronHills Dwarf]

If you can't find a group in your area you can at least start by picking up one the books available on the German systems of longswording. There are a couple and I can give you some titles I've heard are useful (I personally simply use the period source texts). This will at least let you begin the basics of understanding the strokes, parries, and footwork of proper two handed sword play. :) If you can russle up a sparring partner then even more fun awaits. :grin:

[Elegost]

Thx,I'll probably do that.I already have a book on Bu-shi-do and practice that a bit every now and then :cool: .Im looking at some Long swords/Two-handers(whatever you wana call them.)And thinking about get an Irish Hand-and-A Half sword to start out with befor i move to the larger ones.If you dont mind could you give me a few titles?

[IronHills Dwarf]

Sure thing. :cool:

"Fighting with the German Longsword" by Christian Henry Tobler.

"The Swordsmans' Companion A modern training manual for the Medieval longsword" by Guy Winsor.

I've heard both of these are useful, but I haven't had the chance to read them myself. If you prefer just going with straight texts then http://www.schielhau.org/ will probably be useful.

[Elegost]

Thx :)
mecry :battle: = :nono:

[Steve the Great]

forgive me for asking.This has probably been said,but im too lazy to look :rolleyes: .What dose SCA stand for,and do they have a site?

Probably this may help you: http://www.google.com/search?hl=hu&c2coff=1&q=%22Society+for+Creative+Anachronism%22&btnG=Keres%C3%A9s&lr=
As you see, there're a *few* sites dealing with this business... lol

[Phenomenon04]

Keep your Back Straight as much as possible which will keep you balanced. And keep MOVING. Move hips, ever now and then do something UNexpected like throw your leg very close to his shins in a whip like motion.

Strike his wrists and elbows. If they try to come down on you from up top, they have their gut open to ya. ;)

[Daughter of Feanor]

I recommend Alfred Hutton`s "Cold steel". I myself learn that and it is pretty effective.

[Elfdaughter]

Probably this may help you: http://www.google.com/search?hl=hu&c2coff=1&q=%22Society+for+Creative+Anachronism%22&btnG=Keres%C3%A9s&lr=
As you see, there're a *few* sites dealing with this business... lol


SCA stands for Society of Creative Anachronism - best site is the main site - www.sca.org This will lead you to the right site for you. I'm in Drachenwald (Europe) - www.drachenwald.sca.org

[Kazadum]

Warrior Wolf,
I hope you are remmbering when fighting with real weapons it is alot easier to cut through a sheild then a sword. At least in Longsword fighting you block all blows with the sword which means it must not be to bad to use your sword to block.

[IronHills Dwarf]

Actually in longswording sidesteping and simply avoiding strikes or thrusts is preferable. Block is usually done with the flat of the blad if at all. Stage and movie fighting may exhibit lots of edge on edge, doesn't mean its realistic or practical. :cool: :rolleyes:

[Elfdaughter]

And it doesn't half hurt your wrist....;)

[IronHills Dwarf]

Not to mention the sword... ;) Doing german school I assume? It sure is fun, reminds me, I haven't done solo form yet today. :rolleyes: :grin:

[Elfdaughter]

Tell me about it! I've had to de-bur my new sword three times already - and I haven't even fought with her yet! lol

[IronHills Dwarf]

I guess I'm afraid to ask what you have been doing with it then... ;) A blunt i'm assuming (3mm rebated)?

[Elfdaughter]

Lending to my friends when they forgot their swords.....;) Yeah, I do re-enactment fighting, so it's blunted.

[Kazadum]

Iron Hills Dwarf,
I am not exactly sure what you are talking about that ovoiding blows is better then blocking them? Becouse in the Germen style of fighting most of the best attacking techniques stem from a block or a bind. Did you ever go through "fighting with the Germen Longsword" by Christian Henry Tobler? becouse if you did I think you would understand what I am trying to say.

[IronHills Dwarf]

I'm familar with the book as well as the source texts it was based on (which are what I use). Blocks and binds are used frequently, however if you examine things such as talhoffer (which I assume you have) you'll see a number of the described movements are based on steping around thrusts or strikes, which usually involves returning a blow at the same time (thus the concept of strike for strike, step for step). Common sense will also tell you that if you simply avoid a blow without a parry you are left free to attack. If you try and parry everything you'll find yourself on the defensive consistantly (a parry doesn't not leave your sword free). I'm not saying you don't have to bind and block but it's often used as an excuse for lazy feet. ;) The choice is of course dicated by cuircumstance.

Footwork is probably the number one key to any fighting style. Not to mention that swords take (obviously) less wear and tear the less steel on steel occures. I'm afraid people who don't practice good footwork will simply be stuck in the Hollywood notion of edge on edge bashing instead of the fluid historical art of longsword (it is also worth noting that period illustrations can of course only show static posistions). So to get back to your original point, blocking or binds are not bad persay... but edge on edge blocking is. Try it sometime and you'll see how fast you'll chew up even a rebated blade. That was Wolf's point at the beginning anyway. The term block can also be misleading as "displacements" would probably be more accuract given what we can see from sources such as Meyer.

[Kazadum]

what I was mainly reacting to was Wolf saying that you should never use the sword to block and I think that is very misleading and dangerous advice. But I do agree with you that many times a dodge can be the most effective. Though he wasn't even talking about longsword but sword and sheild fighting. And from what I have heard it is far easier to splinter a sheild then to cut through a sword.

[IronHills Dwarf]

what I was mainly reacting to was Wolf saying that you should never use the sword to block and I think that is very misleading and dangerous advice. But I do agree with you that many times a dodge can be the most effective. Though he wasn't even talking about longsword but sword and sheild fighting. And from what I have heard it is far easier to splinter a sheild then to cut through a sword.

Agreed. :) The bind and parry/displacement is important but hardly ever as static as movies show it. Sorry, I'm may have sounded harsh in previous posts but I've recently spent time trying to get a group of teens to unlearn some movie style habits (twirling the sword doesn't really do anything......... lol). But I had allot of fun doing it. Anyhow I'm no expert we're all in the same boat in terms of resources available.

I actually have been trying out a bit of sword and shield, it's a ton of fun. Actually I had quite the challenge because my sparring partner was left handed and I'm right, so our shields end up facing each other. Not easy to deal with. :grin:

[Kazadum]

Sorry it has been so long since I last posted but I have been away for awhile and have been spending alot of computer time on a project for a freind. back to the subject at hand ideally in a fight you should have the initiative. Which some thing that is stressed in the germen longsword style thus you wouldn't have to block only attack.

[Kazadum]

Some thing I forgot to mention Iron Hills Dwarf you said earler in this thread that
you only fight with wood (which is what I do) but there is a site were you can get nice aluminum swords that are not overly expensive here it is http://www.swordcrafts.com/ hope that is helpful :)

[Elfdaughter]

Personally, I'd use the Paul Chen practice blades - you get them for about £50 - I think that's about $70 - $75?

[Kazadum]

were do I get that type of blade?