quis custodiet ipsos custodies?

[Tar-Vanimelde]

A word on moderation.

I feel that I need to start out by saying that this is not an attack on one person, a reaction against one instance, or even the frustrations of one member.

While we all know that moderation is necessary, both in the sense that we have to control ourselves and in the sense of external watchers, there comes a point when it becomes too much. This is a private site, the admins and mods can do as they wish. But from what I’ve seen myself and heard of from others, it smells of censorship and a fondness of the power or ability to regulate what others say.

I have been asked by several people either to become a mod or why I haven’t yet. And the answer is this- I don’t like what I see as the politics of this site. I’d rather not have to answer to someone for my time spent here, and I don’t want to be responsible for what other people post. I do think someone should be able to regulate what goes on, but the nitpicking behaviour I’ve seen turned me off to being a mod.

I am a gold subscriber to this site, I’ve been a MoM before, I think I’m the second highest poster or so. Hopefully that shows that I have a stake in what goes on here. This was my first online community, and while I’ve now branched out, I can say that every person I’ve met and come to be friends with online comes back to WotR with one or two degrees of separation. WotR is my home on the net. And I’m starting to feel unhappy with it.

Yes, there are threads here that are highly specific and should be watched to make sure they don’t go off topic and become chat threads. However, this should be balanced by the allowing of some chat threads to develop. Maybe have some be places where nothing is said if conversation goes a little sideways for a few posts. Often the members themselves regulate this and steer back into line. Some places I think should be moderated only for thematic issues, not the direction of what is said, so much. In other words, preventing flaming, discussion of highly illegal matters, something like that, but not censoring what is said as far as “oh, you know, that’s a mite off topic for the tavern”.

The double standard and hypocrisy that is present in the moderation is very unprofessional, and it seems that professionalism in the management of this site is what is being sought. I’ve been called up for saying things that, in another thread, have been said in the same or similar terms by moderators themselves. Pictures and comments that are apparently sanctioned, seeing as they aren’t commented on or edited by mods or are even posted by mods, are often worse than conversations that members are reprimanded for. What standard are we to look to? There is no way to know if what is being said will be considered “proper”. I’ve found links, conversations, and pictures that I’ve been surprised were allowed at this site, and then at the same time things that I see as harmless are attacked. Whilst I know that I am one person and this is only my opinion, I’ve asked others about this and I am not, in fact, alone in thinking that there is a insulting lack of consistency in what is considered appropriate.

A modicum of thought, if you will. I’ve had posts deleted- not edited, not reprimanded, but deleted, with an attached PM reprimand. Which was then taken back less than an hour later, and the post was returned. In the mean time, someone had replied to it, then it had gone missing and the reply had been confusing to several people…..it’s instances like this and others that make me feel that the watchers here need watching. I’ve had friends who’ve had issues with this so much that they left- others then followed when they saw that posts and even full threads were being deleted. When moderation, in an attempt to preserve the fellowship of a community such as this, oversteps its bounds to such a degree, something needs to be said about it by those it affects.

Aside from such severe cases as above, it is mainly the attitude of the moderators that I have issues with. I’ve been moderated when it was completely justified- I thanked the person who said something, and took it into consideration with later posts. I’ve had cause to talk to moderators myself about people’s posts or posters themselves, and I’m glad they’re here for those purposes. What I’m trying to uncover here is what I and others feel to be excessive, unequal, and often unnecessary moderation.

#Vani

[Tar-Vanimelde]

I didn't want to put too fine a point on it, but mainly my issue is this- I think that people have no opinions of their own until they see what someone else does and they can hide behind it, or they're on a bit of a power trip and do things very haphazardly, just because they can, it seems. There have been instances where people have been chastised for doing less than some of the mods in terms of chatting in threads, and drooly comments. I don't have an issue with what is said, but with the fact that it seems that it's ok only when it is said by them.. I know that in places like bree and the citadel, it’s hard to know where to draw the line. I realize it's an issue, so in my view you guys should be consistent and cohesive with it, and that is NOT what I’ve seen/experienced. I don't know necessarily what can be done, but I do think that it's becoming an abused power. I don't mean to be confrontational, but I posted this publicly so that others could put in their voices too, I don't think this is just me. I’m not trying to hide anything. as I said, it's why I’ve never become a mod

#Vani

[Illuvatar]

Hello Vani,

As webmaster of the site, it grieves me personally to know that you feel this way. I want to let you know that for myself and I believe that I speak for all of my staff as well, takes matters of this nature very seriously.

To the best of my knowledge, we have strived to make our Community forum, along with the other areas of the site, a friendly place where folks of all ages can get together and share in their love of Tolkien and his works.

In regards to the forum specifically we have set in place our Forum Rules of Conduct here (http://www.warofthering.net/forums/vbulletin225/upload/announcement.php?f=43) which are just a few basic rules to keep everyone coming in here happy and make them feel at home. I know I would be uncomfortable coming into a forum of people swearing and using foul language...and a forum where it would be impossible to find a decent post among the tons of spamming. The moderators and admin staff that I have working here have all proven themselves as upstanding members of the community and their applications are carefully reviewed by the staff as we are entrusting them with helping to maintain the family based atmosphere of the place. Each of them have been chosen and are there to ensure the forum stays clean, simple as that. We are what I would consider to be a fairly busy forum and while each moderator has a role and responsibility to the site, it is also a matter of each member's individual conscience, to behave accordingly within the guidelines that we have set forth.

Now...I will agree, as will all of my staff, that none of us are perfect and that every situation is not handled perfectly every time, but I do know for a fact that every single one of my staff pours their heart and soul into what they do here. Now...given that none of us is perfect, and given my role in the management, development, and upkeep of this site, I can well understand mistakes. We all make them, in matters large and small.

I will repeat that I take matters such as you have expressed very seriously. I will also let you know I am a firm believer that no process is perfect unto itself, that there is always room for improvement, and that that self evaluation is vital. As such, I would ask you to outline for me, in either a pm, or an email the instances of implied discrimination or favouritism of which you have referred too. I will take each of these, review them with my staff, and make any corrections that are deemed necessary.

I well understand that you have been here for a substantial amount of time and recognise your contributions to the site both monetarily and by your dedication. Just know that I would take these concerns just as seriously even if you were a non-subscriber with only a few posts. So please do as I have asked. Send me your specific grievances and I will take them to the staff where we can look at what's going on and revise how we handle things if need be. I would like to try and am always willing to make things better so all here feel comfortable okay?

[Tar-Vanimelde]

what with the constraints on my net time due to school and going away for the weekend starting thursday, i'm not sure when i'll have time to thouroughly think through what i would like to say next. i do have things to say, and i appreciate this not being simply brushed aside, however, i'm not sure i can in fact come up with specialized instances to tell you- this isn't a reaction to one event, as i said. mainly what i think needs to happen is probably what already is happening in valinor- blinking, taking a step back, and reevaluating the situation with this as a guide of possible problems to look for

#Vani

[Elfdaughter]

In part, I have to say, I agree with Vani. Having been a MoM as well, and probably (if Vani is second highest poster,) third or fourth highest poster, I have found the same problems.

But there is one thing that has kept me in WOTR (and as soon as I get my loan in I'm going to subscribe) and that is the freindliness of most of the people here. Sure, there are a couple of people who make life difficult, and take away from the fun of being here - but on balance - nearly everyone I've met in WOTR has friendly and helpful. Thing is, I've had posts deleted as well, and again, people have replied to them, and confused the other people in the thread.

Anyway - that was my tuppence...

[Onilalle]

I know very well I haven't been here entirely that long, and haven't been involved in the sort of levels of importance Vani and ED have, (which kind of makes me look a little diminutive next to you people, but hey...) but I've been very observant, and this is what I think...

I can't deny that this is the most friendly, safe and pleasant forum to be on. The community atmosphere is fantastic, and I noticed that as soon as I joined. Heck, that's why I joined. Yet I too have had posts and threads deleted... Though the ones that have been deleted were ones posted while I was new, thus inexperienced of the rules and regulations. What my biggest concern is that the community members that have only just recently joined - being new to the forum and thus probably unaware of these rules - are nearly always the ones who get their posts deleted. Now I'm not saying this is entirely bad, because let's face it, it makes them think about what they put in future posts... But think about it - if you were new and simply wanted to start a thread to discuss what you wished and you found it had been closed, I find it pretty unlikely you'd want to start any more threads, for concern that one might be deleted as well. This can also make people, in some cases, feel somewhat less inclined to keep posting. I rarely start new threads for this very reason, even though I might not be very new any more.

I know some of these threads have to be closed for a reason... I mean yeah, I know some people can create threads when there's another one just like it already, but for the new members, how would they know that? The mods are here to remind them and that's great, but I've also seen situations when threads have been closed simply because they're slightly similar to another, or have the same smaller topic tied in with another but is not entirely made up of that subject. Now I know that's what the forum rules of conduct are for... but if you're new, the chances are you're not going to go and read them straight away. I can be honest now, and say I didn't when I was new.

This is just my opinion, folks. Please correct me if I'm wrong anywhere here.
~Oni

[Tirithel]

*cough* Aren'tyousupposedtoreadtheruleswhenyouregistersoyo uknowaboutthingslikedoublepostingandwhatever? *cough*

Sorry...butting out now. :grin:

[Onilalle]

Hmm, I do know. But many newbies make mistakes - I know I did - and I am simply stating what I think. Sometimes it even seems like the mods forget this, though, and it's very easy to do. We've all made the mistake.

[Cuiel Rilwen]

It would be such a big help if you could provide a pointer to the thread you made that was closed...we're still kinda walking through the fog here. I find it incredibly difficoult to relate to the issue while I don't know exactly what to look for...if you guys really wanna help us be better, please give us some examples!

[ImDaMom]

And when closing a thread, I always pm the starter, explaining why it was done, and offering help with any future questions, especially to newbies.

I'm in accord with CR....it's impossible to fix what you don't know is broken. Show us where we've made these errors, and we can start to correct the systems that allow them to happen.

[Tar-Vanimelde]

it's not really specific instances, though. it's the general attitude towards threads, spamming, warnings, all that. it's how i've seen things dealt with, what i've heard from others. i've been warned three times, i think. i can see where it was coming from, even if i don't necessarily think it was needed. mainly what i'm trying to say here is that i feel the control that is deemed necessary over the pony, citadel or game threads is heavy handed. the point of this site is for fun. some threads, yes, are specific, and should be maintained that way. but there are places that should be for fun, and when one is constantly worried about going slightly off topic, or of being considered spamming, the fun goes away.

#Vani

[Gwaihir]

It should not at all be difficult to have good, clean fun in the Pony without breaking rules.. do you know the kinds of "fun" that people have in other loosely governed or under-managed forums? The world is not all filled with people as nice as most members of WotR.. such people's idea of fun may be pretty warped.

As for the attitudes of the mods, I do not enjoy editing and deleting posts or sending warnings to those posters.. do you really see us as a bunch of power-hungry individuals? It is with regret that I do these things, but modding is my duty and I am just doing my job. ;)

As those above have said, it would really help if you could name an instance... for example, what about some of those pictures you saw on the site that you were surprised were allowed?

[Tar-Vanimelde]

i don't remember where i saw the link, but it was to a site with images of the guys from the movies put together in gay poses. also, links to sites with drawings of legolas naked, stuff like that. i personally feel that it's up to us to regulate ourselves, and as long as there is a warning attatched to such things, it shoule be fine. however, this does not seem to fit the environment that seems to be desired here, and i remember being confused about what was allowed after seeing such a link.

#Vani

[Cuiel Rilwen]

Actually I think I know what site you refer to...could it be DeviantArt? (sp?) I know we had a discussion about this site between us and the fact that it holds content that will offend some people, and/or be unsuitable for our youngest members. I seem to remember we decided that as long as the actual link wasn't to PG rated content it had to be fine...and that we couldn't possibly ban links to sites just for having mixed content or we'd end up banning everything...precicely what I believe to be one of your issues. If a member delves deeper into a site there is always a possibity of finding stuff that will be offending...and at some point a member of such a site might choose to post such stuff too...over which we'll have no controle.

Should we then not allow such links? Please, your opinions all folks who read this!

[Elfdaughter]

Mm, it is difficult to know what to do - but I can see both sides of the argument.

[Onilalle]

it's not really specific instances, though. it's the general attitude towards threads, spamming, warnings, all that. it's how i've seen things dealt with, what i've heard from others. i've been warned three times, i think. i can see where it was coming from, even if i don't necessarily think it was needed. mainly what i'm trying to say here is that i feel the control that is deemed necessary over the pony, citadel or game threads is heavy handed. the point of this site is for fun. some threads, yes, are specific, and should be maintained that way. but there are places that should be for fun, and when one is constantly worried about going slightly off topic, or of being considered spamming, the fun goes away.

#Vani

Yes, I think that was what I was trying to get at :blush: But Vani has put it better. It is the general attitude, and I am not referring to specific instances so it would be unecessary for me to tell you about particulalr threads.

[Cuiel Rilwen]

I am relieved tho to hear that ED...it is difficoult and despite our adress we are not valar.

I even think that one link to this site, posted by a forum member, was deleted before this decission was made. Can this be one of the insidents you referred to, Vani?

Please, I'm not trying to dig this out to make people look bad...but I'm sure you see how hard it is to understand where the mistakes are being made without something more fleshy....not to mention correct them.

[Tar-Vanimelde]

i do understand, and i'm trying to come up with instances. much of what i've put forward here, though, isn't just from myself, and i'm unwilling to push people to name names or whatever. i did talk to several members before posting this, and no one disagreed with me. it was more along the lines of "i'm starting to resent the feeling i'm getting from the mods" rather than "i can't believe what so and so did"

as far as correction goes, i've heard suggestions about making some places more specifically "spam friendly" so that rather than people feeling pressured or controled, they can simply be directed to another area. i've been told that certain conversations were better suited for the pony, but then informally told there that i was still getting off topic.
it's things like that- i don't have a specific instance or names, nor would it do any good. i'm not seeking an appology or to have one decision lifted- what i think needs to be changed is too harsh governing of the more general threads here. maybe watch only for language/improper behaviour, rather than being so concerned about spam, relay posting, being on topic.......... we need a place to relax, so to speak. if we're in a thread about costumes and something unrelated comes up, we should be able to say, hey, lets take this talk to the tavern, and not have to worry that it's not 'tavern talk'

#Vani

[Lady Galadriel]

I personally feel that this site is very lenient towards "off topic" discussions. As an offender, I know it well. Fortunately, I usually do my part in bringing topics back on track before a moderator has to intervene. Once or twice several members and I have been reprimanded for being "off topic" in a thread where only a few of us frequent. That was fine with us because we are fully aware of the rules and to be honest, I personally like order. Instead, as an alternative, if we want to pursue conversations that are unrelated to a thread or M/E, we utilize PM, MSN Messenger, Live Journal, email or whatever works for us. The "mild" -and I say mild because CoE is 100% more stringent- restrictions on this site in no way curbs my enjoyment. I love it here!!!!

Again, this is just my personal experience here.

[ImDaMom]

Thank you Lady G....we try to keep it pleasant. If we fail, it's only because we're trying too hard to make the forums as comfortable to everyone as possible. I ask anyone who feels we're too hard to go visit CoE, and come back here. Computers are great, and if you use the vast opportunities you have here on line, a few rules and regs in WOTR threads shouldn't bother you.

[Night Wolf]

*cough* Aren'tyousupposedtoreadtheruleswhenyouregistersoyo uknowaboutthingslikedoublepostingandwhatever? *cough*

Sorry...butting out now. :grin:

the way the mods deal with it though is OFTEN condescending at best. Also there treatment of there own mods, CATZ whom spent alot of time building this community to be a friendly and welcoming place, and wasnt brash in the way she dealt with discrepancies of the rules was spat on. Her thread was deleted when she decided to leave and more then likely so will this post.

Just airing the dirty laundry...I mean no disrespect but disrespect to former members has been made from my understanding. The mods just need to lighten up and allow fun to be had without an iron fist raised, forums die quickly when excessively modded, from what i've seen the ratio of staying new members to members leaving is INCREASING. i can understand with some fora, but when it comes to the general discussions the grip should be loosened a little so we can all have fun.

I agree in whole with Vani.

[Gwaihir]

I personally feel that this site is very lenient towards "off topic" discussions. As an offender, I know it well. Fortunately, I usually do my part in bringing topics back on track before a moderator has to intervene. Once or twice several members and I have been reprimanded for being "off topic" in a thread where only a few of us frequent. That was fine with us because we are fully aware of the rules and to be honest, I personally like order. Instead, as an alternative, if we want to pursue conversations that are unrelated to a thread or M/E, we utilize PM, MSN Messenger, Live Journal, email or whatever works for us. The "mild" -and I say mild because CoE is 100% more stringent- restrictions on this site in no way curbs my enjoyment. I love it here!!!!

Again, this is just my personal experience here.Yes Lady G, I often see you help pulling threads back on topic, and I thank you for that! :)

[Lady Arwen]

I agree with Lady Galadriel completely. I have been told to go back on topic more than once and i am fully aware that it was the right thing that had to be done in that case. The moderating here is simply perfect and i cannot complain at all...as Lady Galadriel said, if we want to talk about other issues there are PMs in the first place and thru them you can exchange more personal info like emails, or MSN identities so i dont see the problem.
Also, just because someone is a subscribed member or has been a MoM, does that make the person more special and free to disobey the rules that the forums has decided?i find this rather immature honestly...the law should be the same for everyone..or at least thats what ive been taught.

[Night Wolf]

no one said that they should be above the rules being a MoM or subscribed member! but if you are paying for the priveledges of being a paid member you SHOULD have a stake in the best interests of the community.

[Lady Arwen]

and isnt that sayin that you are somehow priviledged?i dont get the whole thing!btw, im subscribed too so does it make me free to go around the forums sayin wotever i want and insultin the mods if they dare to say somethin to me?:nono: dont agree sorry

[Night Wolf]

what i mean is if a place you pay to be at is going down the toilet (sorry but without a regular flow of new returning members a community cant progress) then you should by rights be able to say whats on your mind to help benifit the community.

After CATZ got the boot i had contemplated leaving anyway...there is only one reason i'm still here :).

[Lady Galadriel]

In general, I get the impression that people are quite happy here. I have seen the same people here now for the better part of my membership and most are online almost all day. I also believe that people join forums and are often pulled away by real life and other distractions. I myself is a member of several different LOTR forums and I can honestly say that I dont frequent them nearly as much as I do here. It can also be that case for people who join and dont post too often. People also lose interest at times..that can be another factor.

Maybe a good idea would be to do a poll to get an idea if members are satisfied. I personally cannot believe that so many members are unhappy here...but perhaps I dont mingle enough.

Oh, and regarding Catz, I dont know exactly what occurred with her, but I do know that she was quite intimidating and often very brusque. My interaction with her was very minimal but I have seen several of her posts and I have actually seen where a member told her that when he/she first came here, he/she was afraid of her. I know several other members felt the same way too..because we have spoken about it. But I never realized when she left because again..I tried to keep my interaction with her very minimal.

[Laurelin]

Lady G, I have to agree with you about Catz, this site versus other LotR sites and everything you've posted. Thank you for sharing your opinions! :rose:

Before I became a mod or MoM, my interactions with Catz were strained at best. I did try to be friendly with her, but she was very caustic to me on several occassions for no apparent reason other than she simply chose not to like me. Fair enough. Not everyone is going to like me and I'm ok with that. I was just thunderstruck that a moderator would treat a member in the manner with which she did. However, that is neither here nor there with regards to moving forward in an attempt to make this a better place. Catz is not here anymore and that is a shame. We do need to move forward now and fixed what needs and can be fixed imho. ;)

[ImDaMom]

what i mean is if a place you pay to be at is going down the toilet (sorry but without a regular flow of new returning members a community cant progress) then you should by rights be able to say whats on your mind to help benifit the community.

Of course you should be able to say what's on your mind, paying member or even a guest. Lady G is right- attrition at any site happens, especially when the movies ended, we knew there would be a drop. And, interestingly enough, a peak of members online occured just about a month ago, so I can't see where we are 'going down the toilet"

After CATZ got the boot i had contemplated leaving anyway...there is only one reason i'm still here :).

I'm sorry your opinion of us is so low, Wolf. Condescending? Is it that miserable here? I can't imagine why you find this place so intolerable, that only one or two other people make it worthwhile. I too have frequented other sites, and find this one to be the most friendly, warm site out there. We are working hard to address the issues raised by Vani, and you will see changes for the betterment of the community. If that's not caring or responsive, I'm not sure what you want.

[Cuiel Rilwen]

It feels very good to read that all are not discontent with WotR...thank you ladies for speaking your mind about that! I certainly don't believe this forum is falling apart at all, but it will suffer if we only hear one side of this!

NightWolf...I think you and Vani should take another look at your precious Catz...if you really think she was such a fab mod...did you ever stop to consider that there are more than one side to an issue?

We're trying to find a solution to this that most people will be happy with. Then we'll see...I hope we can manage to mend whatever is wrong.

[Night Wolf]

its not vani if thats what your thinking, i stay because of the friendly nature on the forum...the condescending part is from PM's i've receieved, it just felt as if i was being lectured for very insignificant things like making a comment off topic in response to an on topic post.

And people have been intimidated by me often...ask vorn ;) were now friends. I never saw anything from CATZ that would suggest her being intimidating, occasionally brash but what was said behind the facade left was not nice. Thus why I feel she was mistreated by admin, not mods. as I recall when joining ALOT of people followed CATZ poetry threads, 4 or 5 members which were regulars have since left due to her departure. She did have a positive position here as a mod but that is beyond the point of what i am saying, i mearly used her situation to reference certain points.

your focusing on minor parts of what i'm saying then amplifying, thus twisting my point. Simply:

This forum is fine in its moderation, but the grip on some things can be loosened so we can all have fun (eg. prancing pony threads). I mean threads will naturally die, from what i've seen it automatically gets removed if its of a certain age without a response. So this will keep over usage of bandwidth to a minimun (i know that is a problem all forums have to work around).

I wont respond back to this thread, i'm clearing my PM box so anyone can PM me if you so wish about this.

[Lady Galadriel]

...the condescending part is from PM's i've receieved, it just felt as if i was being lectured for very insignificant things like making a comment off topic in response to an on topic post.

Again, I think this is quite normal behavior toward moderating a site. As such, I will draw reference to CoE, which is my second home next to WOTR. Over there, we are not given much leeway to make comments "off topic." Like i was telling a fellow WOTR member, to be at CoE is to master the art of apology- you are always apologizing to a mod. lol The moderators are extremely quick to correct off topic conversations. Personally, I dont mind it in the least because they are just doing their job. Not only that, they are quite rigid over there about many things. You guys have absolutely no idea how much more accommodating this site is.

[Amithrellas]

My feeling is that if you have a specific grievance with a Mod, you are most certainly free to take that matter up with the person. When I have a problem with someone, that's what I try to do -- without ego, without anger -- because this is the best way to find a solution. If you felt that someone was being condescending, Night Wolf, why didn't you PM the person back? Or, if you felt the situation or person was "un-workable", contact another member of the staff? The grievance is specific then and easier to deal with than sweeping accusations.

Imho, the broad based generalizations levelled here have been an affront to ALL of the staff, especially those who are new... I don't know if you're aware of the lengths that are gone to... There is normally none but the most clear cut infractions that are discussed at length in order to determine (a)if it warrants a reprimand and (b) what the PROPER response should be if there is one. It is AGONIZED over. There isn't one member on the staff that is out to boot step over ANYONE's fun. Quite the contrary.

But we are also very aware of keeping this the most hospitable place it can be -- and what I think I'm conveying may come across as something altogether different to someone else. It's a global place here, after all, and besides there are individual perceptions. The place of the Mods, as I see it, is to keep the place fair and smoothly running for all.

Which is not to say any of us is above re-evaluation... which is precisely what is happening, as Cuiel has pointed out.

*steps down off soap box*

[Cassandria]

All well said...Gee it sounds to me like everyone has decided to take what has been said to heart and work with it. Sounds very much like a comprimise is in place. Perhaps we can all move on now...with lessons learned and enjoy this place which has grown to be like family. Remember, even 'families' have disagreements and most of the time their love for one another takes priority and things work themselves out. Can't we do that now? Nuff said? :rose:

[Cuiel Rilwen]

Very well put Cass...and exactly what we're trying to do now. I hope it will be good enough.

[Laurelin]

I just wanted to thank everyone for their input in this thread. Thanks for helping us make things better! ;)

[Cuiel Rilwen]

What Laurie said! :)

[JemFinch]

Wow... :o It's amazing what goes on when you don't even realize it. :mmmm: I had no idea about any of this, it's rather depressing. I don't know why. It just is.

[Cuiel Rilwen]

Don't be depressed hon...we're growing from it....and moving onwards. :)

[Laurelin]

What Cuiel said. ;) Things are getting better!

[Elijah's Girl]

All I am going to say is that I have a feeling that pretty soon we won't have this trouble :rose: :smooch:
Thats all :grin:

[Vorneniel]

*let's out her long held breath* I must admit, I've been worried about this for a bit now, but it looks like things are working out.

Yes, there was a time where I was afraid of Night Wolf to the point where I went out of my way to avoid him, but it turns out that my fear wasn't based in reality, it was merely a misunderstanding, my mistaking the jests of a fellow member, but once I started talking to him outside of WoTR I discovered a truely sweet person, and a true friend. I've found it to be that way with other members I feared as well, like Adun, for instance. I was terrified of her, but, as luck would have it, I was just misunderstanding again, the same went for Laurelin. I think what I'm trying to say is, people aren't always how they may appear, I personally have had people PM about something I had done that they thought was a little offensive, and I explained myself and what I had intended. Some people just don't see a reason to clarify what they see, or aren't willing to give someone a second chance to explain themselves or their actions. Though, fortunatly I've found that cases like that are rare here.

I've never been good at saying exactly what I mean, so if what I posted here has confused or disturbed you in anyway, please PM me. I don't want this message to be taken the wrong way by anyone here.

[Onilalle]

Well said indeed, Vorn. I absolutely agree.

[Tar-Vanimelde]

Also, just because someone is a subscribed member or has been a MoM, does that make the person more special and free to disobey the rules that the forums has decided?i find this rather immature honestly...the law should be the same for everyone..or at least thats what ive been taught
I have never disobeyed the rules. Whenever something was brought to my attention by a mod, I was gracious in my apology and I tried to change my behavior- I was thanked for it once and I’ve never been asked about the same thing twice. I’m not asking for special privileges or concessions. The reason I said what I did was because it would be easy for people to think that I was trying to bring down the site. What I intended was to show that I am very committed here and I’ve not only invested my time here, but I’ve also given money because I think it is such a worthwhile place and I’ve met so many wonderful people here. Rather than being immature, I was attempting to show that this is not merely whinging but an effort to improve a site I am very involved in. I was not making myself out to be a member of a privileged elite.


does it make me free to go around the forums sayin wotever i want and insultin the mods if they dare to say somethin to me? I have not gone around the forum saying what ever I please, and I put an inordinate amount of time and thought into what I said because I did not want to be insulting. I created a thread in the suggestions forum making a suggestion about what I see as a problem.


I think you and Vani should take another look at your precious Catz...if you really think she was such a fab mod...did you ever stop to consider that there are more than one side to an issue? of course there are, and what’s done is done. I still talk to her almost daily, and I feel that the site lost something when that mess occurred- however, there is much more to the issue than I think anyone other than a very few know, which is why I didn’t bring her up. I know that many people felt her leaving was justified, and I’m not going to go into it here. I met her, we’re friends, we still talk. Of course I’ll stick up for my friend, but that’s not the issue. As far as what this thread is about, the pertinent part of the catz thing was her thread being deleted- I feel the site owed it to her and those who knew her to let her say goodbye, that is my complaint right now. To me, that smacks of censorship.

My feeling is that if you have a specific grievance with a Mod, you are most certainly free to take that matter up with the person. ah, but I don’t have a specific grievance with a mod. What I have is a feeling about the site as a whole. I also made this a public thread for a very specific reason. There should be nothing to hide here. People need to be able to voice their opinions, even if it’s negative. I was told I was brave for making this thread. Excuse me? Am I the only one who sees that that’s a problem? People shouldn’t be too intimidated or embarrassed to bring up an issue. I’m not saying go wild and pick at everything. I made this a thread rather than a private pm or email because there is nothing to be ashamed of here, on my part or (from my point of view) the site’s. what’s so harsh about saying ‘hey, I think there’s a problem’? I did what I did to improve the site, not to try and pull it down, and if there’s an issue with this being brought up here, like this, well, I think that’s reason for concern


#Vani

[Onilalle]

I think what Vani's saying is perfectly logical. It's not just one picky incident, but it's the whole thing in general. It's not harsh at all, and if you can't speak up and say there are some things that could be improved on the site, then what can you do? This place is for everyone, not just a small minority of people, and everyone's opinion counts, whether they've been on this site for a long time or not. That's what I think. And Vani has said it all, basically. ;)
~Oni

[Tar-Vanimelde]

LOL thanks hon

#Vani

[Vorneniel]

Oni, you are talented lol, you managed to understand my post lol, and I agree whole-heartedly with your asessmants hon, and Vani's done a wonderful job getting the point across, methinks.

[Lady Arien]

I created a thread in the suggestions forum making a suggestion about what I see as a problem.
As far as what this thread is about, the pertinent part of the catz thing was her thread being deleted- I feel the site owed it to her and those who knew her to let her say goodbye, that is my complaint right now. To me, that smacks of censorship.
What I intended was to show that I am very committed here and I’ve not only invested my time here, but I’ve also given money because I think it is such a worthwhile place and I’ve met so many wonderful people here.
Rather than being immature, I was attempting to show that this is not merely whinging but an effort to improve a site I am very involved in.
ah, but I don’t have a specific grievance with a mod. What I have is a feeling about the site as a whole. I also made this a public thread for a very specific reason.
What I’m trying to uncover here is what I and others feel to be excessive, unequal, and often unnecessary moderation.
From what I can see, as far as what's been said, literally, is that the suggestion is based on something that happened over a year ago, was addressed...countless times...explained...over and over...apologized for...profusely...and pertains to an issue that has not happened since then.
Please explain what it is about the moderation that you are trying to "uncover." Every mod has to start somewhere, and, yes, they can be a little overzealous in the beginning, but they are errors on the side of the greater good while in a learning curve...nobody's perfect...it's not as easy a job as one would assume...the majority of disciplinary actions are discussed at length among the staff, and, when necessary, new methods of handling situations are devised to ensure that everyone is treated fairly. By giving the generalization the we're a bunch of zealots ready to delete threads and posts at will, without caution or thought, paints a rather unfair picture of the staff in general, especially when, even though the time was taken to make several lengthy posts about how much improvement is needed, there was no willingness to take the time to present recent specific examples that would illustrate the need for said improvement. The main foundation of your "suggestion" is an issue which has no bearing on what's going on in the forums today, but, rather, long-passed situation which involved a staff member who chose not to uphold the rules she helped create, as was pointed out quite recently in another thread...
i'd not named beleg or catz or bawax, but i remember all those times you three got into trouble and i sat there laughing my fool head off
Even that situation had its benefits, as it pointed out the need for an application/review process for anyone interested in a staff position, rather than entrusting a position someone just because of the length of time they've been here.
As the site grows and changes, we have to grow and change with it, and we've taken several issues to heart and come up with several solutions and ideas for the future, but I don't see any more need to visit the catz issue as a means of argument/improvement/justification/explanation...there's nothing to see here, folks, and it's time to move along.

[Cuiel Rilwen]

If you feel that something is wrong somewhere you have to understand that in some cases it may be just that...a feeling...something that isn't really there...you got the wrong perception, misunderstood...like we can misunderstand the nature of people, as Vorneniel said...we do this often...it's called bad chemistry...and I totally agree that we shouldn't be scared of eachother but reach out and give eachother a chance...and by taking that chance maybe earn a friend more or two...which noone should want to pass up. I'm sure everybody has experienced this at one time or another...and perhaps made the wrong decissions based on that feeling...I know I have...and what did it teach me? Namely to make my enquiries BEFORE I trample over everyones feet with my clever deductions.

You describe a situation so flimsy I can't grasp it, Vani...you are complaining about the site being over eagerly moderated but you're not the one this is done to...and yet it is being dealt with and we're trying to fix it. I hope it will feel better.

But it feels to me...and note that this is MY feeling and I'm not ashamed of it...like you ARE trying to bring down the site...if not, then why didn't you write and post this letter to Illu...instead of making this a public issue that has made a lot of people very uncomfortable...and I'm not only talking about mods here...nor of shame...nor of keeping secrets. Or you could have sent it to Laur who is your friend...and told about your concern in the same manner. It would have released the very same process that we have now been going through but without all the agony and anger it brought...and I truly believe that decissions are easier to make in a positive environment...not the hostile warzone you created with this.

Did you stop to think about that? I rather hope you didn't cus well...

[Tirithel]

*dons serene Buddha face*

Okay, in the interest of calming the storm and summing up, I've taken what I think are the main points from the starter post in this thread, and, in mine own slow yet peaceful way, will attempt to interpret and respond. I'm also regurgitating a lot of what was discussed in staff area. I find that when dealing with complex issues, it helps to stop, slow down, and sort your thoughts. :grin: Here goes.

What follows are said points from Vani's original post (This is what I think she was trying to get across):

it smells of censorship and a fondness of the power or ability to regulate what others say.

I don’t like what I see as the politics of this site.

I do think someone should be able to regulate what goes on, but the nitpicking behaviour I’ve seen turned me off to being a mod.

There is no way to know if what is being said will be considered “proper”.

I’ve been called up for saying things that, in another thread, have been said in the same or similar terms by moderators themselves.

that people have no opinions of their own until they see what someone else does and they can hide behind it, or they're on a bit of a power trip and do things very haphazardly, just because they can, it seems.

it seems that professionalism in the management of this site is what is being sought.

So it seems there is a problem with "over-moderation"? . Okay, fair enough. But forgive me if the 'fondness for power' thing makes me laugh...I don't know anyone that became a mod because they're power-hungry and going to TAKE OVER THE WORLD! MWA HA HA HA HAAAAA! :flamer:

:blush: Sorry. Back to topic.

As per knowing 'what is considered proper'...this is an issue with consistancy in the mods, yes? Like, why is this all right to post/say, but that is not? Right?
Believe me, everyone, when I say that since this discussion began, the staff have devoted PAGES of threads and talk as to what is considered 'spam' and what is not...what is considered cursing/swearing, and what is allowable. [b]I think that the discontent we find with the moderating here comes from the gray area of right and wrong, and we are working to fix and define that grey area, but it's not easy.

I've been staff in RP for a year-and-a-half now, and I still question myself constantly and worry whether or not I'm being too strict. The thing is, everyone here is only human, including the moderators, and we all make moderating mistakes, especially the new mods (don't mean to pick on you guys, but it's true, if only because you are new. Sorry. Begging your pardons. :begs: ) but nobody is here to be a tyrant or force authority on people. There are rules and we try to enforce them to keep this place neat and fun and friendly. Thassabout it.

So, civilized opinions please: what 'politics' seem to be the problem? Worries about favoratism?

I’ve been called up for saying things that, in another thread, have been said in the same or similar terms by moderators themselves.

I won't deny it- in the past, much leeway in chatting/spamming has been given to staff members.

But, the problem was taken care of. Problem was sited, Admin politely asked said staff to shape up or step down. Staff promptly left the site.

Otherwise, I think this issue again goes back to inconsistancy in mods, which, as stated, we are working to fix. It is HARD trying to find a perfect middle between too much leeway and being too strict, and when we are too nice, it's not good enough. When we are too tough, it's not good enough.

We are only human. We are trying. Please feel free to offer suggestions, help out, ask questions.

We are only human. We are trying.

[Vorneniel]

By giving the generalization the we're a bunch of zealots ready to delete threads and posts at will, without caution or thought, paints a rather unfair picture of the staff in general, especially when, even though the time was taken to make several lengthy posts about how much improvement is needed, there was no willingness to take the time to present recent specific examples that would illustrate the need for said improvement.

There has been no generalization stated here nor is there an intention of one. It was calmly and politely started that a member herself has had some problems, and knows of others that have as well, others who might be somewhat shy or afraid of coming forward or discussing their problem with the mod with which they had the misunderstanding. No one is trying to make bad guys out of the mods, that wouldn't do any good to solve any issue, and I'm confident that everyone here realizes that.

"there was no willingness to take the time to present recent specific examples that would illustrate the need for said improvement." Vani gives reason for this in the first paragraph of her first post, "much of what i've put forward here, though, isn't just from myself, and i'm unwilling to push people to name names or whatever." Though it has been started that there are several members who happen to agree with her and she's doing her best to explain things without pulling others into this, it's not a lack of willingness, it's her respecting her fellow members. She also stated, "it's not really specific instances, though. it's the general attitude towards threads, spamming, warnings, all that" That's an example in itself, if somewhat vague... why not ask her to explain more clearly if something is not understood instead of making accusations. We're here to discuss ways mods and members can work together to help clear up this issue, without making enemies and allies out of eachother in the process. If we could all talk to eachother, ask questions, to make people's meanings more clear, I believe this would be going a bit more smoothly.



The main foundation of your "suggestion" is an issue which has no bearing on what's going on in the forums today, but, rather, long-passed situation which involved a staff member who chose not to uphold the rules she helped create, as was pointed out quite recently in another thread...

And if this is referring to the incident with Catz, (if it's not, skip ahead to the next paragraph, I'm just trying to help clarify things) I don't really think that that is a "foundation" of any sort, I don't know who brought it up, but I haddn't gotten the impression from Vani's earlier posts, the ones stating the issues she and several others have, that Catz has anything to do with what has been brought up here.



As the site grows and changes, we have to grow and change with it, and we've taken several issues to heart and come up with several solutions and ideas for the future, but I don't see any more need to visit the catz issue as a means of argument/improvement/justification/explanation...there's nothing to see here, folks, and it's time to move along.

Vani has stated her grievences in the first few posts of this thread, the grievences we're discussing here, and I don't see the issue with Catz mentioned or hinted as a problem in the earlier posts, if there is any question with that, it would help if someone would make known where they'd gotten their impression from and ask whoever had given that impression what they intended.

I'm not trying to single out or attack Lady Arien, or anyone else here for that matter, but your post contained almost all of the issues I've noticed with where this thread is going, and it was very helpful for me to get my opinions across. If anyone happens to disagree with me, I respect your opinion and would enjoy the chance to discuss it.

As I said in my other post, I'm terrible at getting out exactly what I mean and I say again, don't hesitate to PM me if you don't understand or don't agree with something.

That's all I have to say for now, and I truely hope what I've said will help us to work together on this issue.

[Laurelin]

Everyone, thank you for posting your thoughts. ;)

I was wondering (in the same vane as Tiri somewhat) if some of you could post what you think "specifically" might help make things better? Just some ideas for you...How we handle reprimands? How we handle spam and double posting? How we interact with each other in the threads? How we... _____ (fill in blank)?

Feedback would be much appreciated. The only way to make things better is to communicate effectively and all parties be open minded as to the solutions. Thanks in advance! :)

[Vorneniel]

Hmm, I've read this thread at LEAST three times, and I've managed to miss the earlier Catz comments every single time, I'm truely sorry about that, and I've pmed a mod asking to have certain parts of my earlier post removed

i say again, I'm sorry for the information I've missed.

[JemFinch]

First off, this is the best site ever. lol So please, these suggestions are only in the very back of my head, not me being uncomfortable in the site.

I think the major problem here is this: miscommunication. It's so common in such things as instant message, discussion board, email, etc... When you speak to a person in real life, you are able to get a good idea of his emotions by his voice, expression, body language, etc...Here, all we have is smilies. (and even new smilies. :yahoo: lol) So...this might seem rather ridiculous...use the smilies. Always using smilies can be irritating; you feel like you have to cover up for your emotions. I'm not saying that at all. If you're angry, by all means, use pfbbt and verymad Let's not be phony here. But whenever you pm someone (this goes not just for the mods, but for members as well), and if you're correcting someone, and you are honestly not angry, go ahead...put a smilie. It will help assure the person at the other side...nothing is wrong, no hard feelings, just a little reminder. This will cause less miscommunication, and abolish any misconceptions such as "Oh great, the mod is mad at me again", or lessen any feelings of insecurities or guilt. ;) (Not saying I have any of these, just a suggestion.)

Also....another suggestion in regards to the "drooling threads" such as "Wet and Wonderful Men of ME." Sometimes comments and/or pictures in threads like that can be rather "suggestive". We have younger members in this community, even younger than myself, and do we really want them to see Sean Bean in a bathtub? :huh: As for myself, I'm sure MY parents wouldn't be thrilled about it. And I know now to avoid that particular thread. :grin: Not a problem. But I do believe that mods should also care not to post suggestive comments and/or pics. They're human too, I know, and have as many infatuations as the rest of us. lol But I believe that the ones that we look up to shouldn't be posting questionable material.
That's all. :grin:

[Laurelin]

Jem...thank you so much for your post!!!!! :yahoo: I REALLY appreciate it and I'm guessing the other mods will as well. Thank you so very much for this input! I can't speak for all mods, but I shall try to add these suggestion to my posts and pms. :smooch:

[Aletheia]

Oh Jem I like that smiley idea :thumbs: Thanks hun!
And I will keep that in mind too....being and setting a good example is important, espec. where our younger members are concerned ;)
Thanks for the very good comments :) I second Laur & appreciate it too!

~Leia:rose:~

[Cuiel Rilwen]

Ahhhhh....very constructive and good post Jem! I think this is exactly what we need to start talking issue and not feelings! :blush: And I do know that such simple things, tho they can seem to be silly, many times work surprisingly well! So very good suggestion indeed! :thumbs:

Well I'm heading straight to droolsville to see for myself what this is all about...come get me someone in case I don't return...I may have fainted from hyperventilating! lol

[Laurelin]

I got ya covered Cuiel! lol *hands her a life vest* ;)

Seriously we really appreciate suggestions like this so if anyone else can think of anything, please post!! Also...if you like (and I know we'd like it too) post what we're doing right so we continue to do it. :blush: ;)

[Cuiel Rilwen]

*gasps for air after staying too long inside the thread about the wet men* thanks Laurie...good that someone's looking out for me! lol Did I leave any wet puddles in there?

I'm in really in here to do something that gladdens my heart. :) Namely to say that I am done being mad and I want to apologise to ANYONE who I may have hurt with the words I have used. :blush: I've really hated the feelings I've had about this, but they're gone....I want to move on. I hope we can take the next step now. entdraught

[Charmander]

Just to let everyone know - as a staff we have talked about a variety of things that have been brought up and at least have made some progress, we think, with one ;)

I made an announcement a couple weeks ago (seen here http://www.warofthering.net/forums/vbulletin225/upload/showthread.php?p=477598#post477598) that the ban on new establishments has been raised and that we are also going to be more lenient regarding the CoC in the Pony. I hope this is a step in the right direction :)

[Laurelin]

Thankee Char! :smooch:

[Cassandria]

*gasps for air after staying too long inside the thread about the wet men* thanks Laurie...good that someone's looking out for me! lol Did I leave any wet puddles in there?

I'm in really in here to do something that gladdens my heart. :) Namely to say that I am done being mad and I want to apologise to ANYONE who I may have hurt with the words I have used. :blush: I've really hated the feelings I've had about this, but they're gone....I want to move on. I hope we can take the next step now. entdraught

I agree Cuiel and I'd like to repeat what I said a few days ago...

All well said...Gee it sounds to me like everyone has decided to take what has been said to heart and work with it. Sounds very much like a comprimise is in place. Perhaps we can all move on now...with lessons learned and enjoy this place which has grown to be like family. Remember, even 'families' have disagreements and most of the time their love for one another takes priority and things work themselves out. Can't we do that now? Nuff said? :rose:

[Tar-Vanimelde]

:p i've been told i'm addicted to smilies....:blush: and jem, i dunno if it was you or what, but things seem to be a bit...nicer now LOL

charmander- thanks for showing us what's been done, and again, i hope that this has been constructive, not attacking :) from what i've heard individually and seen here, it does indeed seem like thinks are being looked at and adjusted :grin:

#Vani

[Amithrellas]

Also....another suggestion in regards to the "drooling threads" such as "Wet and Wonderful Men of ME." Sometimes comments and/or pictures in threads like that can be rather "suggestive". We have younger members in this community, even younger than myself, and do we really want them to see Sean Bean in a bathtub? As for myself, I'm sure MY parents wouldn't be thrilled about it. And I know now to avoid that particular thread. Not a problem. But I do believe that mods should also care not to post suggestive comments and/or pics. They're human too, I know, and have as many infatuations as the rest of us. But I believe that the ones that we look up to shouldn't be posting questionable material.

I want to offer a profound apology for having offended anyone within the community. :beg: It was certainly never my intent in starting the W&WM thread or posting the pic of Sean. Nor did I ever expect that, having been given a Mod's position would put my actions above question. I am all too aware of my own failings and look to my fellows for honest assistance, there. I think I can only manage having my son looking up to me, Jem. If you feel that disqualifies me as Mod -- then you, or anyone else who feels likewise, should certainly take it to the big Kahuna -- Illu notworthy

[Tar-Vanimelde]

at least for me, i never intended to have any threads shut down or to have people feel guilty....just to look at what's going on. maybe just being more aware of things..... don't worry, ami

#Vani

[JemFinch]

and jem, i dunno if it was you or what, but things seem to be a bit...nicer now LOL
Nope, it isn't me...it's the whole spirit of everyone here. This just reminds me of how lucky we really are to have this place. ;)

I want to offer a profound apology for having offended anyone within the community. It was certainly never my intent in starting the W&WM thread or posting the pic of Sean. Nor did I ever expect that, having been given a Mod's position would put my actions above question. I am all too aware of my own failings and look to my fellows for honest assistance, there. I think I can only manage having my son looking up to me, Jem. If you feel that disqualifies me as Mod -- then you, or anyone else who feels likewise, should certainly take it to the big Kahuna -- Illu

ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!!!! :o We love ya dearly, hon. :smooch: You're a GREAT mod. I didn't mean to nail a single person, I was only speaking as a general rule, and HAPPENED to use that thread as an example. I DO look up to you, please feel NO GUILT!!!!! :cuddles:

[Amithrellas]

You bow to no one, Jem notworthy
You were absolutely on target to point that particular thread out (and my job to claim culpability) ;) You've just helped to make this an even better place -- and hopefully-- me a better Mod

[Laurelin]

This kinda thing can be fixed pretty easily though. Between us mods and members, we can all work together as a team to ensure when we post in the W&WM thread or other threads that receive similar posts/drools ( lol ) that it stay more towards PG 13 from here on. Ami, your thread is good fun and there's no reason to banish it at all. :smooch: It makes me very happy that we're all working together now for the betterment of our precioussss green screen. veryhappy