Mirkwood Spiders vs. Shelob

[Algamesh]

WarRingers,

What relationship existed between the Mirkwood Spiders and our Lady - Shelob? Which are more terrifying (I know you are probably tempted to say Shelob, but, take a moment and really think about the Mirkwood encounter before you answer)?

What differences do you notice when comparing/contrasting them against one another? Are these difference due to Tolkien's presumed audience?

Just trying to get ya thinking! :thumbs:

[TheRingBearer]

Well they both have the elment of surprise :grin:

[Pil]

I do think that shelob is more scary :elfeek:...and i HAVE thought about it... ;)

I think that the spiders of mirkwood were the offspring of shelob anyway...mere shadows of her strength. I would much rather face up to lots of spiders that can be defeated by a hobbit rather than shelob which...ok she was defeated by a hobbit too...but i don't have an elven blade...

I think what makes shelob scarier is that she is more intelligent than the smaller spiders...she plans an attack... :o

[TheRingBearer]

Definatley... and she's bigger :grin:

[Algamesh]

But is she actually bigger? We assume she is I guess but do we have any factual evidence of this? Also, were the Mirkwood spiders the offspring of Shelob or siblings to her ( I forgot ... hehe). I was thinking that they were all the offspring of Ungoliant but I could definitely but in error here!

[Fatty]

Hmm I think they are offspring, or maybe offspring of a sibling of hers. As regards the encounter I think that the Mirkwood one certainly has as element of horror about it. The intelliegnece the spiders have etc.

However, it doe snot get the car crash treatment that Shelob does. Actually I think that the encounter with Shelob sticks out a bit in the book. Tolkien is unusually descriptive in respect of the ghastly nature of her. The ensuing battle is somewhat gory too.

It is a while since I readThe Hobbit, so I may go back and read that chapter and then reply again. :-) thanks for getting me thinking.

:-)

FB

[Eowyn]

I think Shelob is more frightening but I hate big spiders. They have too many legs! but I agree with fatty that the shelob scenes were described in detail. (I have the dreadfull image imprinted in my mind Help!) :elfeek:

[Bonos-Girl]

i thin that nthe mirkwood spidres were more scary coz there were loads of them......although shelob is definitely scary.....lets just say they both terify me!!!

[Mirkgirl]

If I have to react hastly I'd say Shelob is more terrifying, but mostly because of the surroundings - the wood, however dark vs Shelob's Lair, the ready to be 'expelled' Necromancer vs Sauron in his greatness.

When I come to think - the spiders are many (not only the number, but the feeling of comunity, I left with the feeling they do have one), they are free, they hunt elves sometimes, lost travelers and such, rare because of the wood's reputation, but yet. Shelob is a gloomy lonely creature, living on lean Mordor creatures and captives... Is it not her anger that makes her so terrifying? Isn't it her weak spot too?

This theories, however, are valid only if Shelob and the other spiders are more or less the same in powers.

I'm not sure what are the relationships between Shelob and the Mirkwood spiders are, but I believe in LotR it is said that she is the last child of Ungoliant and her posterity has spread everywhere, including Mirkwood. So it was said she was running for her life once. I believe its poddible she to be the last of the Ungoliant's children and on in the generation the bloodline of Ungoliant has declined.

If that's true (and even if it is said, it's been ages since I read LotR) Shelob has some advantages, but yet again I think that the reasons I gave are at least evening the score.

[Pil]

Originally posted by Mirkgirl
Shelob is a gloomy lonely creature, living on lean Mordor creatures and captives... Is it not her anger that makes her so terrifying?

Indeed. The mirkwood spiders were less driven....and probably younger. Shelob had had ages to build up a hate for all that lives that she can devour....such a force would make her more terrible and terrifying. The most successful murderer has a motive and shelob had built up one hell of one! :evilcool:

[Tar-Ancalimë]

And then in TTT you get this third person point of view from the orcs and gollum. they call her "She" witha capitol letter... they practically worship her... we didn't get anything like that in TH.

And they equate her on a level with sauron... the of course EVILEST character... and that contributes to the psychology too.

If you know what I mean.

[Nessa]

I know what you mean. :grin:

Tolkien built up Shelob more than the Mirkwood spiders, and I believe she was intended to be recieved as older, fouler, and yes, a lot more frightening than the rest.

Someone (Algamesh I believe) asked about concrete evidence that she was bigger. Well, I don't have the books handy at the moment, perhaps I will do some reall research on the subject later. But for now I think that she probably was, Sam after all could stand upright underneath her (granted he's not very tall) and I always imagined Bilbo just hacking ground level spiders left and right........ I will have to come back to this later, I'm in full scale geek mode. :grin:

Someone else mentioned that she was probably more intelligent, I didn't get this at all. She seemed somehow more savage than the Mirkwood spiders, and she was never shown to speak, although I guess she would have had to speak to Gollum in order to work out their deal.......Its odd how much speech, or lack there of, can constitute as intelligence, in my mind anyway.

Overall I would say Shelob frightened me more, it may have been the sudden descriptiveness, or the helpless situation Frodo and Sam were in (though Bilbo was as well), or maybe because I think Tolkien inteded it so. I read somewhere that he wasn't fond of spiders, that he was bitten by one as a very small child and it made him sick. Maybe this (or just the fact that most people- me not being one of them- just find spiders over whelmingly creepy) had something to do with why he made them so horrifying.

[Tar-Ancalimë]

:)

[Mirkgirl]

Myself, I don't think the size was not so vital.

[Stormrider]

There were many more spiders in Mirkwood and they snared the Dwarves in their webs. Bilbo used more riddles and name calling to distract and confuse them. Once he was able to free up the Dwarves he had more help in fighting them off. The tale is simpler and lighter in nature than the Shelob incident in The Two Towers. I think it is because The Hobbit was not meant to be dark and foreboding like LOTR.

The encounter with Shelob was a setup. Gollum planned it and informed Shelob ahead of time so that she could be ready for Sam and Frodo. Her gurgling and bubbling noises must have been magnified and it was so dark they could not see where she was. When they finally saw Shelob with the help of Galadriel's Phial it was a real shocker!

There were only the two of them against Shelob. She was a much more formidable foe than the Mirkwood spiders. She was clever and had many tunnels in her cave to trap her victims. Tolkien wrote it to be more horrifying than the spiders in the Hobbit.

So I would say that Shelob is much more frightening than the Mirkwood spiders....

Stormrider, Lady of Rohan

[Bawax]

shelobs scarier, i'd need one huge vacuum cleaner to get her.

throwing my boots at the mirkwood spiders would probably work so i don't care about them. :grin: lol

[Tar-Ancalimë]

I agree... and we all thought about it too! So why isnt this a poll? Maybe I'll post another one that's a poll. Sshelob would win I think. Let's see:

Pil: Shelob
TheRingBearer: Shelob
Fatty: Shelob
Eowyn: Shelob
Bonos-Girl: Mirkwood Spiders
Mirkgirl: Shelob (I think she meant that anyway)
Tar-Ancalime: Shelob
Nessa: Shelob
Stormrider: Shelob
Bawax: Shelob
And Algamesh never specified his preference. Of course this is imperfect because there would probably be people who might have voted but didn't post. Anyway the score is thus, how I reckon it:

Shelob: 9
Mirkwood Spiders: 1


Hmmm... I think it's pretty clear.

[Algamesh]

You're correct! I never posted my preference! I shall rectify that now.

I must go against popular opinion! I would rather face one Shelob than a group of talking, possibly sorcerous, giant spiders! Tolkien wrote The Hobbit for children and due to this fact, had to tone down on terror. I began thinking to myself ... if the Hobbit had been aimed at an adult audience .. what then? I think the Mirkwood Spiders have it! So ... 9-2 ;)

[Tar-Ancalimë]

Yes! Thank you OK 9-2 then.

Anyone else wanna vote?

(im having a lot of fun here BTW)

[Tary]

Biblo did not have to much trouble with mirkwood spiders I would have to say Shelob.

[Tar-Ancalimë]

10-2

[Grond]

First off... let's get a few facts straight. The Mirkwood Spiders were merely lesser offspring of Shelob and she a lesser offspring of the Great Ungoliant. from The Two Towers, Shelob's Lair
There agelong she had dwelt, an evil thing in spider-form, even such as once of old had lived in the Land of the Elves in the West that is now under the Sea, such as Beren fought in the Mountains of Terror in Doriath, and so came to Luthien upon the green sward amid the hemlocks in the moonlight long ago. How Shelob came there, flying from ruin, no tale tells, for out of the Dark Years few tales have come. But still she was there, who was there before Sauron, and before the first stone of Barad-dyr; and she served none but herself, drinking the blood of Elves and Men, bloated and grown fat with endless brooding on her feasts, weaving webs of shadow; for all living things were her food, and her vomit darkness. Far and wide her lesser broods, bastards of the miserable mates, her own offspring, that she slew, spread from glen to glen, from the Ephel Doriath to the eastern hills, to Dol Guldur and the fastnesses of Mirkwood. But none could rival her, Shelob the Great, last child of Ungoliant to trouble the unhappy world.Secondly, she was truly invincible. In all the ages of the world, she had met and slain, Man, Elf and Dwarf. None could best her. Her wound received in her battle with Samwise was self inflicted. She threw herself upon him to crush him and fell upon Sting... inflicting a more severe wound on herself than any mortal had ever done.

I would rather face 1000 Mirkwood Spiders that could be slain, than one Shelob who could only be slain by fate. :):o

[Mirkgirl]

Originally posted by Tar-Ancalimë
Mirkgirl: Shelob (I think she meant that anyway)
Nope, I think they're about the same.
Shelob:
+ more power, a lot more
- too much time spend hiding and munching orcs and such
+ the same makes her more terrifying in her anger
-anger is not the best weapon
Mirkwood spiders:
+more in quantity, a lot more
-not very powerful tho
+community feeling - a pack of dogs scare me more than a single bear
+however careful the travelers and elves are, the food is better for sure

I would rather face one Shelob than a group of talking, possibly sorcerous, giant spiders!
I disagree only because of the surroundings, but if they are in similar places I don't know maybe her.

The other thing is that Bilbo was alone, lost his friends and so on and he had nothing to lose - he wanted to save himself...
Frodo and Sam on the other hand are going right into the most dangerous place, they fear orcs, nazgul, the eye, etc and there it is a big spider on the way right out of nowhere - scary eh?
Bilbo meets a gang of spiders in a magical wood, no big deal. Frodo meets a giant spider while he is so close to the most dangerous place for his time.
It's normal to have a lot more of fear in Frodo's case.

All these are just thoughts, I don't want to stand on either side, so it is still 10-2 after Grond's post

[Black Rider]

omg spiders of any kind freak me out. but i'd have to say the mirkwood spiders because there are more of them. i'd rather have one huge one than a bunch of little ones. ::shudders::

[Mirkgirl]

lol Tolkien is what he is because he uses human lusts and fears so well :thumbs:
10:3 Mirkwood spiders get another victim, hehehe