Balrog

[Finrod Felagund]

Do you think that the Balrog that Gandalf took out was of the same power that Glorfindel, Ecthelion and Tuor and others battled. If so Tuor, who killed 5, was quite the warrior.
I don't think the Elves would have had a chance if all the Balrogs were like the Moria Balrog, who I believe was a very powerful one, probably near Gothmog

[Maedhros]

Well, you actually have hit an interesting point. The Balrogs that Tuor killed were not the same as those of Glorfindel, Echtelion or Gandalf.
From the Book of Lost Tales II: The Fall of Gondolin
yet others were creatures of pure flame that writhed like ropes of molten metal, and they brought to ruin whatever fabric they came nigh, and iron and stone melted before them and became as water, and upon them rode the Balrogs in hundreds; and these were the most dire of all those monsters which Melko devised against Gondolin.
There were definitely not hundreds of Balrogs.
In the tale Gondolin is very clearly visualised as a city, with its markets and its great squares, of which there are only vestiges in later writing (see above, p. 207); and there is nothing vague in the description of the fighting. The early conception of the Balrogs makes them less terrible, and certainly more destructible, than they afterwards became: they existed in 'hundreds' (p. 170),* and were slain by Tuor and the Gondothlim in large numbers: thus five fell before Tuor's great axe
In fact Tolkien himself said that only 3 to 7 balrogs ever existed
The idea that Morgoth disposed of a 'host' of Balrogs endured long, but in a late note my father said that only very few ever existed -- 'at most seven'.
We have:
1. Gothmog
2. Glorfindel's Bane
3. Moria Balrog (Durin's Bane)
4 -7. Suposedly destroyed in the war of wrath.

[Narsil's weilder]

Balrogs are one of the most interesting things in the Silmarillion, i couldn't of read the whole thing with out them.

[Sindarin]

I like the Balrogs alot. They're both terrifying and spectacular at the same time :flamer:

[Lady Ashley]

Nasty critters they were. Gosh, I'd prolly pass out if I met a balrog. Heck, I'd prolly pass out if I came upon a hobbit...mainly from shock of seeing one...*grin*

I like how Gandalf says "balrog" with a rich rolling of the 'r'.

[Lady Melody]

Balrogs are interesting creatures... can any of you explain to me how, who, what, and when does this creature came to be and their details and all... I'd surely would love to know!

[Catz]

Simply put....balrogs were Maia who sided with Melkor...in Elvish they were called the Valaraukar. Chief among them was Gothmog.....as to how many Balrogs there were...its hard to say....and theres a thread debating just this going at the moment....
:catz:

[Lady Melody]

Hell would break loose if there's more than 10 Balrogs in this world. Old Gandalf nearly died over one, luckily he lived through it.

[Bawax]

i think the balrogs were seriously overrated, they were Maia, just the same as Saruman, Sauron and Gandalf but i'd say those three were stronger then any balrog.

i'd probably be more scared of a hamster running about that was on fire. lol

the dragons were a bit worrying though. :mmmm:

[Catz]

i have to disagree....Gandalf beat Durins Bane its true, but only at the cost of his mortal form.....it very nearly Whupped his Maia backside, and we dont know if it was one of the great Balrogs or not either...id say they were pretty nasty characters
*watches B race past her, an on fire hamster growling, with its little teeth latched onto his ankle......*
what was that B? Gerrrofffyoulittle%*&^$##???? didnt quite get the last bit mate.....;) lol
:catz:

[Finrod Felagund]

Overrated?!?!?!?!, list is too long as to why they are not overrated

[Bawax]

well i think they were overrated, if i had the option of being known as the person who killed the chief of the balrogs or the person who killed the chief of the dragons i'd go for the latter every time

[Catz]

Balrogs were maia...by definition that means theyre more powerful than Dragons....
:catz:

[Bawax]

Originally posted by Catz
Balrogs were maia...by definition that means theyre more powerful than Dragons....
:catz:

ok then, Maia second only on Ea to the Valar, Balrog=Maia, many Balrogs slain by men and elves so they can't be that great. dragon slayers woud be held in better renown i think.

when Glaurung came forth to war he had balrogs in his train, it wasn't the other way for Gothmog.

[Catz]

that still doesnt prove that Dragons were more powerful than Balrogs tho......and there could have been ranges of strength....some Balrogs being much more powerful than others
:catz:

[Daughter of Finarfin]

Maia were created by Iluvatar himself though. Even though they were currupted, they still were immortal spirits. Dragons were created by Melkor who was created by Iluvatar, so they would be one generation down on the power chain if you get me.

[Narsil's weilder]

They seem to be more mystical than anything else. They are like the captains of evil.

[Orofacion of the Vanyar]

many Balrogs slain by men and elves so they can't be that great. dragon slayers woud be held in better renown i think

Turin slew Glaurung. Earendil - Ancalagon the Black (greatest of the dragons) , Bard - Smaug.

Many Balrogs were slain by many of the greatest elves and men that ever lived. This was the First Age when many of the elves originated in Aman, therefore they were of greater power than the Moriquendi. The men of this time were far greater then those of the Third Age, say... Faramir. Look at the line of Hador alone; Hurin, Huor and their sons Turin and Tuor. All great men. And of course, there's Beren.

Look at it this way. Gothmog led Morgoth's army (which included dragons) into battle. If dragons were greater, why then were they not the leaders?

But in the end how can we really compare the two in general. I like what catz said in that...

that still doesnt prove that Dragons were more powerful than Balrogs tho......and there could have been ranges of strength....some Balrogs being much more powerful than others

[Grond]

Originally posted by Daughter of Finarfin
Maia were created by Iluvatar himself though. Even though they were currupted, they still were immortal spirits. Dragons were created by Melkor who was created by Iluvatar, so they would be one generation down on the power chain if you get me. There's a very important difference here. More than you are identifying. Balrogs are Maia, created by Iluvatar. Dragons were somthing also created by Iluvatar and distorted by Melkor. Melkor could not make anything. Everything was created by Eru/Iluvatar and marred by Melkor.

Having said that, I'm not sure we'll ever know exactly what Dragons or even Ungoliant were. Tolkien makes it clear (in his later writings) that the only Maia ever to reproduce was Luthien; yet, we have creatures like Ungoliant and Glaurung who appear to have Maia like power and yet both reproduce. (Ancalagon the Black was a descendent of Glaurung and Shelob a spawn of Ungoliant). It's just like Tom Bombadil, another one of Tolkien's little mysteries. :)

[Lady Melody]

Well... so the logical way to see it would be that Maia's are more powerful than dragons... since Iluvatar PERSONALLY created Maia's... while it was Iluvatar's Valar's the one who created dragons... Okay...

[Grond]

Originally posted by Chibi Melody
Well... so the logical way to see it would be that Maia's are more powerful than dragons... since Iluvatar PERSONALLY created Maia's... while it was Iluvatar's Valar's the one who created dragons... Okay... No... J. R. R. T. makes it clear in his works that the only one who could create was Iluvator. So, any non-Ainur creatures were the creation of Iluvatar. They may have been distorted by Melkor or even Sauron but they were in the beginning of their history, created by Iluvatar.

What would be fair to say is that "in their beginnings" the Balrogs would have been the more powerful creatures, being of heavenly origin. However, they "bound" themselves to their earthly forms of Fire and, in doing so, were weakened as a result.

[Mirkgirl]

Originally posted by Grond
No... J. R. R. T. makes it clear in his works that the only one who could create was Iluvator.Well I think we all know what I'm going to say - Aule, dwarves

Originally posted by Grond
So, any non-Ainur creatures were the creation of Iluvatar. Eru created the Ainur:There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Ilúvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought
Originally posted by Grond
They may have been distorted by Melkor or even Sauron but they were in the beginning of their history, created by Iluvatar. Not talking for Sauron, but it is said for Melkor:
For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Iluvatar; and naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance of life, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion in the Ainulindale before the Beginning: so say the wise. So he had the ability to create life, but lost it when rebeled. Or was believed to have lost it, even the wisest men sometimes are wrong. (this is debatable tho)

well topic time:
The Balrog are more powerful than the dragons. In general terms, in war or some conditions you never know.
Something which hasn't been said before: the dragons actually reproduced. I've never heard of a reproducing Maia, save for Melian and the Balrogs did not reproduce. The mere process of reproduction means that the race is not stable, it has not been created at the level of its own limit of 'perfection', but a developing race.

[Grond]

Mirkgirl said
Well I think we all know what I'm going to say - Aule, dwarvesfrom HoMe X, Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed
As the case of Aule and the Dwarves shows, only Eru could make creatures with independent wills, and with reasoning powers.Aule made automatons. Eru transformed them into living and rational creatures.Mirkgirl said
Not talking for Sauron, but it is said for Melkor:
So he had the ability to create life, but lost it when rebeled. Or was believed to have lost it, even the wisest men sometimes are wrong. (this is debatable tho)Tolkien's writings indicate the wise were right in this case. Mirkgirl said
well topic time:
The Balrog are more powerful than the dragons. In general terms, in war or some conditions you never know.
Something which hasn't been said before: the dragons actually reproduced. I've never heard of a reproducing Maia, save for Melian and the Balrogs did not reproduce. The mere process of reproduction means that the race is not stable, it has not been created at the level of its own limit of 'perfection', but a developing race. Oops... a few words come to mind... Ungoliant, Watcher in the Water, Eagles. All are probable Maia and all "bound" themselves to the Earth by ascending into Arda. Melian is the only Maia who is acknowledged and known to have been a Maia and reproduced. Ungoliant, by description, is more likely a Maia/Ainur as well and she definately reproduced. Shelob was her last child.

BTW, Mirkgirl... I should have said "ALL" living beings were created by Eru.. for of course I knew that Eru created the Ainur.

[Lady Melody]

Wait, so Dragons are distorted beings, and can reproduce (I thought they could not!!!)... so the point is that Balrogs power is downscale compared the the dragons...

Man, I'm getting a headache...

Aren't Balrogs supposed to be more powerful since the Iluvatar created them... while the Dragon's origins is still being questioned here....

[Narsil's weilder]

So how do you kill a Balrog?

[Gwaihir]

I like balrogs, though I don't know why. :) They must be more powerful than dragons if they were Maiar. Most naturally so. And yet in one of the battles of Beleriand, It was Glaurung who was in the front, followed by balrogs. hmmm.... :mmmm: Does anyone know what a balrog actually looks like? Is the one in the movie like what it's supposed to be? I can't find a good description in the books.

[Tar-Palantir]

I have a quite good image of how the Balrogs looked like, in my head. You can read what made me think about it at www.glyphweb.com/arda/ go to the entry about Balrogs. There there is a discussion about whether or not balrogs have wings.

Back to Topic:
IMO Balrogs are more powerful than Dragons.

note: Melian was the only Ainu to reproduce, but she did that in the form of an Elf.

[Lalaith]

I feel like muscling in on this debate!!

I believe that the Balrogs were more powerful becasue they were Maiar of flame. I'm sure that the Balrog that Gandalf defeated must have been considered powerful even in comparison to other Balrogs - it had, after all, presumably escaped the War of Wrath and had spent the best part of Two Ages in the roots of the Misty Mountains - even among the Immortal that's a hell of a long time for hate to fester and power to grow.

If you consider some of those who were killed by Balrogs, you can come up with a list of very impressive warriors: Feanor, first of all, an undoubtedly powerful Noldo. Fingon the Valiant was slain by Gothmog, although he had to be pinned down by a second balrog. Glorfindel - he may have killed the balrog but it was at the cost of his own life. Gandalf - his physical body could not survive such an encounter.

As for Dragons? They were very powerful but their strength was not solely rooted in physical might. It was Glaurung's words that wrought the downfall of the Children of Hurin, not his physical strength. Perhaps they might have been stronger even than your average balrog, if they weren't so fond of riches. They were evil, yes, but greedy. That's their weakness - Balrogs enjoyed destruction and killing, Dragons enjoyed the spoils.

[Tar-Palantir]

If you consider some of those who were killed by Balrogs, you can come up with a list of very impressive warriors: Feanor, first of all, an undoubtedly powerful Noldo.
Feanor was killed by many Balrogs and he was alone.

[high capt. of angbad]

hey people dragons are by comparision easy to kill. they have a weakspot on the chest, and thats how smaug died. with a balrog, where r u gonna stab them?

[Mirkgirl]

Yeah, it is known by even hobbits that "that dragons were softer underneath, especially in the region of the-er-chest", but if there wasnt the hole in his armour it;d have been impossible, as the dragons learnt their lesson after Glaurung.
However dragons are lesser creatures than Balrogs IMO (Barlogs are Maia, powerful fire spirits, the dragons are a result of an experiment). But we shouldnt take the luck that allowed Smaug to be killed to mislead us... dragons were powerful creatures as well... maybe we should remember Turin's words as well For I do not believe that this Dragon is unconquerable, though he grows greater in strength and malice with the years. I know somewhat of him. His power is rather in the evil spirit that dwells within him than in the might of his body, great though that be.

But let me remind you that this thread is about Balrog's only... its topic is Do you think that the Balrog that Gandalf took out was of the same power that Glorfindel, Ecthelion and Tuor and others battled. If so Tuor, who killed 5, was quite the warrior.
I don't think the Elves would have had a chance if all the Balrogs were like the Moria Balrog, who I believe was a very powerful one, probably near Gothmog
the thread about comparison between Balrog and dragon is here (http://www.warofthering.net/forums/vbulletin225/upload/showthread.php?s=&threadid=894&perpage=15&pagenumber=3)... get back to the real topic now please :p

[Evenstar]

I don't know, but in the two towers movie it looks like Gandalf killed the Balrog by stabbing it.

Something I thought of: Dragons can talk, and I don't think the Balrogs do anything other than roaring... do they? I'm not sure. But wouldn't that make them more intelligent than Balrogs, even if Balrogs are stronger?

[Mirkgirl]

hmm I can't prove it with a quote right now, but the Balrog were Maiar and they all talk (even lesser spirits like the eagles do)

[Evenstar]

OK, thanks Mirkgirl. I just don't remember any saying anything, that's all.

[Tar-Palantir]

Someone please correct me if I am wrong (have not yet got the Letters)

I have heard that Tolkien wrote in a letter that the Balrogs didn't make any sounds. This might contribute something to this debate.

[Mirkgirl]

Can't help with the letters... but from LotR:
The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell.
If we had a roaring balrog that wouldnt be exactly silence
The Balrog made no answer.
Why stating he didnt answer, if he couldnt? If he was supposed to roar, why not say stopped roaring in the previous quote or roared in responce here?

Last but not least, I dont think that a powerful Maia like the Balrog would go around roaring like a wild beast.

[Tar-Palantir]

I could not agree more Mirky. Why should a powerful Maia roar like a wild beast?