Say what, dear Professor?

[Cassandria]

:) Tolkien had his very own unique way of writing. It is the core of Middle Earth. It was the one thing that drew many of us into his multi-faceted world. Sometimes I will read and then re-read a passage because it struck such a deep cord within me, that it created a profound emotion, a gnawing question, or it has lead me so far beyond the edges of my own intelligence that I need to dissect it to understand. His words are thought provoking, melodious, like an elaborate song scored in complexity; or they are written as simple and adorable as a little Hobbit. :frodo:

This thread is a Tolkien writing study, much like the LotR Painting Study thread in the Art section. :cool:

I will start by posting a passage from one of his books or letters. We can discuss them, critique them, tell what feelings they provoke, and interpret what we think his meanings were; or tell how it has impacted us. Once it seems talk has run down, I will post another passage. :stomper:

If you have a passage that you would like to include, feel free to post it, or if it is too much to type, you can pm myself or Peri An with the page number and paragraph and we will cut and paste it into the study once the current topic has been discussed. :) Please try to keep it fairly short (not whole chapters) and try to stay within one or two topics or themes. It can be as short as you like…even one word if there is one of the Professor’s many that you would like to elaborate on. ;)

:) To begin this thread I couldn’t resist a passage from one of his letters; number 27 to the Houghton Mifflin Company. Being partial to Hobbits… :p :sam:

I picture a fairly human figure, not a kind of 'fairy' rabbit as some of my British reviewers seem to fancy: fattish in the stomach, shortish in the leg. A round, jovial face; ears only slightly pointed and 'elvish'; hair short and curling (brown). The feet from the ankles down, covered with brown hairy fur. Clothing: green velvet breeches; red or yellow waistcoat; brown or green jacket; gold (or brass) buttons; a dark green hood and cloak (belonging to a dwarf).
Actual size – only important if other objects are in picture – say about three feet or three feet six inches. The hobbit in the picture of the gold-hoard, Chapter XII, is of course (apart from being fat in the wrong places) enormously too large. But (as my children, at any rate, understand) he is really in a separate picture or 'plane' – being invisible to the dragon.
There is in the text no mention of his acquiring of boots. There should be! It has dropped out somehow or other in the various revisions – the bootings occurred at Rivendell; and he was again bootless after leaving Rivendell on the way home. But since leathery soles, and well-brushed furry feet are a feature of essential hobbitness, he ought really to appear unbooted, except in special illustrations of episodes.
:cool: I will begin the discussion by saying this passage was to me like finding the lost treasure map! :yahoo: lol The detail of which he reveals in the appearance of our beloved little friends just tickles me to no end. veryhappy I can almost hear the jolliness in JRR’s voice as he says “A round, jovial face; ears only slightly pointed and 'elvish'; hair short and curling (brown)” or “…well-brushed furry feet are a feature of essential hobbitness…” lol I emphasize the mention of the ears…an issue that had me curious since the release of the movies. I can’t remember reading it in the Hobbit or LotR. Has anyone else? :)

[Nessa the Dancer]

Ahh glad to see I'm not the only borrower around here lol.

Nice thread Cassie dear :grin:

One thing that comes loud and clear from that passage for me is just how much passion Tolkien had for his Hobbits. He writes about them as if he were talking face to face with the reader as as if it were his best friends he were describing.

[IronHills Dwarf]

The ear thing doesn't occure anywhere but in that letter IIRC. There's still people who like to argue the elves didn't have pointy ears... :rolleyes: But I digress.... lol Carry on with the excellent thread! :thumbs:

[ImDaMom]

Wonderful thought for a thread, Cass. This letter also is the only place we are introduced to the idea the hobbits (well, at least Bilbo) and boots. Considering the problems PJ had with the actors wearing latex feet, to me it's a good thing that he didn't find this to justify his hobbits wearing boots. (Which we hear in the appendices he did consider, but couldn't find a way to justify). But you're right in that you can tell how much he loved his hobbits.

[Cassandria]

veryhappy I'm so glad you all like the thread! There is nothing like the magic of this man's words! ;)

Oh and one other thing that struck me as interesting...the tone of his words "...a fairly human figure, not a kind of 'fairy' rabbit as some of my British reviewers seem to fancy...". The Professor seemed to be very sensitive about misinterpretations of his characters. They were after all his very own creation...almost like children that he was so proud of! ;) I think that is very understandable! :)

[ImDaMom]

And he had to know that the term "hobbit" would be interpreted as a rabbit- especially to those of us who grew up with Alice in Wonderland, and the rabbit in the waistcoat and bare feet!

[Aragorn]

I think the thing that seems obvious to me is that Tolkien did not start with a fantasy creature and develop him into a very human type of creature. I get the impression that Tolkien was thinking about his butcher, or a gardner he would see, or his local baker...someone real who triggered Tolkien to thinking about how he could use that person as a basis for this fantastic race of creatures. I get that impression because the vision is so firm that I would be shocked if it was not based in reality.

Another point worth mentioning here is that not only does Tolkien understand what a hobbit looks like, but he understands "hobbitness" at this point already. Knowing Tolkien's love of languages and origins, he could never invent hobbits without them having a history to support what type of creatures they are. It's this attention to detail that allows Middle Earth to seem like a place that was, or is, real, and it allows us to read LOTR in a manner where it is history every bit as much as it is fantasy.

[Cassandria]

Very good point IDM! :thumbs: But I wonder which came first...Alice or The Hobbit? I know they both go way back. Do you know? Well, perhaps the thought didn't occur to him until later. hmmm Maybe he used the rabbit as an influence...or...

I get the impression that Tolkien was thinking about his butcher, or a gardner he would see, or his local baker...someone real who triggered Tolkien to thinking about how he could use that person as a basis for this fantastic race of creatures.

Aragorn I never thought of that! He may have known someone who sparked the imagination and it grew from there! If so, it must have been someone he was rather fond of for sure. It will be interesting to see if he mentioned it anywhere in the letters as I get further into the book.

[Ithildiel Noldoran]

Fantastic thread, Cass!veryhappy

I had never heard about Tolkien's inspiration regarding the hobbits!I find the whole concept quite intriguing! :grin: I have to say, I tend to think he based the jovial, sweet little creatures on reality, as well; they feel so real and you develop an affinity for them from the second you open "The Hobbit" or LotR...they just feel like they've been there for ever, if you follow me!;)

[ImDaMom]

Good thought, Aragorn. You DO get the feeling he knew a hobbit before he created them. Think about it- if you are writing a story, you base the characters on people you know, and its a good bet the Prof did so as well!

And Cass..AiW was written in 1864. so it predates LOTR by many many many years.

[Cassandria]

Wow IDM! I didn't know AIW was so old! You know, I must admit I never really liked that story. :-/ If Tolkien did take the 'idea' of it...I like his modifications much better! :thumbs:

Also, I like the picture of Tolkien on the cover of the book of letters. He is wearing a waistcoat and jacket. :grin: I wonder if he owned them in yellow, brown and green. :p

I'm so glad you like the thread Ithil! :) And I agree, it does feel like "they've been there for ever"! :)

[Periantari Andruil]

I'm so glad for you starting this thread, Cassandria! :smooch: :thumbs:
and very glad for the participation in here so far! :grouphug:

I think the thing that seems obvious to me is that Tolkien did not start with a fantasy creature and develop him into a very human type of creature. I get the impression that Tolkien was thinking about his butcher, or a gardner he would see, or his local baker...someone real who triggered Tolkien to thinking about how he could use that person as a basis for this fantastic race of creatures. I get that impression because the vision is so firm that I would be shocked if it was not based in reality.



That is a very interesting point because i think Tolkien did mean for hobbits to be ordinary people ... he himself said that he thought he was like a hobbit...
Unlike any other creatures of Middle-Earth, one can fairly say that they were the least "magical" or "mythical" or even extraordinary. They definitley reflect the quality of being the ordinary and everyday person ...



Also, I like the picture of Tolkien on the cover of the book of letters. He is wearing a waistcoat and jacket. I wonder if he owned them in yellow, brown and green.

I really like it too~ very hobbit indeed :D

I remember Tolkien having a passage about himself in his Letters being most like a hobbit~ i thought that quite interesting...

::scurries off to find it:: (or does anyone know which letter i'm talking about? ;) )

[Cassandria]

Hi Peri An! :cuddles: I'm so happy you like the thread! :cool:

I don't recall coming across the letter you mention, however I am still fairly early on in the book. I do remember hearing or reading it somewhere before though. :grin: I think many writers do put a little bit of themselves into a character, whether they had another influence or not. ;)

[ImDaMom]

While this may be a bit off topic, it does relate to the thread...is LOTR a true fantasy? These are not 'fantastic' creatures, they are as human as any character in other books. They do not have mythical, magical powers....even the Voice of Saruman, appealing, charming and persuasive, is a human skill, and I'm sure JRR knew someone who could 'sell ice machines to eskimos'. Gandalf is wise and brave, but JRR met wise, brave men in the army, who probably seemed to be able to do anything. And hobbits- well, they were his friends, his neighbors. (Where the furry feet came from is anybody's guess lol I HOPE he didn't know anyone with big fuzzy leathery feet) I've only read very few of the letters (need to work on that) but he seems much more grounded in reality than other so called 'fantasy' writers. (And Cass- I've NEVER liked AIW....too surreal for me)

[Cassandria]

This thread is for comfortable, thought provoking conversation on any of Tolkien's words. If the text we are discussing and the current conversations lead you to a thought that is not particularly on topic of the text, then it is okay! ;) In fact it makes it all the more interesting! :) The text is merely a tool to engage conversation on the wonderful works of Tolkien. :cool:

And your thoughts certainly provoked much thought for me IDM. ;) In fact my Hubby and I had a similar conversation in regards to whether Wizards are fantastical or Scientific. We agreed on the later since Gandalf really didn't have much power as far as magic goes. You make excellent points on the humanness and mortality of the characters, but I do feel that overall LotR is a fantasy.

There are the Wraiths, Sauron as the eye, the palantirs; and most of all, the Ring and its mind bending, tormenting and age effecting powers. It even talks! :o :pAlso there is Treebeard and his magical elvish draught that quickly made the hobbits grow to unnatural heights. lol

hmmmm btw, I think I know one person with furry feet! lol

[ImDaMom]

Well, the ring talks in the movies, but doesn't really 'chat' in the books. :ring: I guess a fantasy to me indicates unicorns and leprechauns who appear and disappear, magical half-men/half-animal creatures, children who fly, all that sort of stuff. While Sauron's eye and the wraiths are indeed non-human, they, as well as all of JRR's creations, are bound to the natural world. Wraiths can be washed away in a flood. Ents suffer the same as other creatures. Even Sauron had to flee when it was discovered he was the Necromancer. I'd like to find more writings of JRR in regards to Sauron..the one character we know so little about!

[Cassandria]

Oh! lol Of course you are right, I forgot the Ring does not chant in the books like it did in the movies. lol And, more information on Sauron would be very interesting! :thumbs: Did you read the detail on Sauron in Lost Tales? :-/ Still even more info would be great! :) I see what you mean about the super-powers of fantasy. I'm glad Tolkien didn't go that far. I read somewhere that he didn't really care too much for magic. And again, I like that his lil hobbits are so down to earth and human. :)

[ImDaMom]

And you can tell in his letters how much he loved the hobbits! He also shows a fondness for the elves, but I'm not sure about his feelings for dwarves. Any indications in his letters?

[Cassandria]

Dwarves! :) Well, here are two quotes on dwarves that I found in his letters that give a hint on how he felt about them. What are your thoughts everyone?

156 To Robert Murray, SJ. (draft), Nov 4, 1954
Even the dwarfs are not really Germanic 'dwarfs' (Zwerge, dweorgas, dvergar), and I call them 'dwarves' to mark that. They are not naturally evil, not necessarily hostile, and not a kind of maggot-folk bred in stone; but a variety of incarnate rational creature.

Excerpt from a draft of letter 212 to Rhona Beare, 14 October 1958
This is the Elvish legend of the making of the Dwarves ; but the Elves report that Iluvatar said thus also: 'Nonetheless I will not suffer my design to be forestalled: thy children shall not awake before mine own.' And he commanded Aule to lay the fathers of the Dwarves severally in deep places, each with his mate, save Dúrin the eldest who had none. There they should sleep long, until Ilúvatar bade them awake. Nonetheless there has been for the most part little love between the Dwarves and the children of Iluvatar. And of the fate that Ilúvatar has set upon the children of Aulë beyond the Circles of the world Elves and men know nothing, and if Dwarves know they do not speak of it.

I personally don't think he was genuinely fond of them, not like his hobbits or elves. But I think he respected them in many ways and as a compassionate man, I think he held a bit of affection for them; as he would any creature not entirely evil.

[ImDaMom]

I think he was fond of them- hence the "not a kind of maggot-folk bred in stone"- but I don't think he 'knew' them in quite the same way that he knew hobbits, and for the most part, elves. Were they an afterthought? Some group who were not fond of elves, yet not evil? Did he feel he needed the tension between elves and dwarves? In other words, were they simply a literary device to show how special the elves were to Iluvatar?

[Cassandria]

Did he feel he needed the tension between elves and dwarves? In other words, were they simply a literary device to show how special the elves were to Iluvatar?I agree with this thought completely! They were the opposers, holding vital roles in several of his stories. How else could he write the fall of Doriath without the imperfect and gruf characteristics of the dwarf. He purposely made them, not completely lovable, yet not completely evil, in order to make the tale more interesting. A kind of balance in an imperfect world.

I like the message that comes to my mind in the second quote...that perfect or not, all beings deserve compassion.

[Aragorn]

I think the role of the dwarves was to show that not everyone feels passionately about any or every issue - regardless of how big it appears to others. It was also an attempt to show how a policy of isolationism is not a practical one and that no matter how much you want to insulate yourself from what happens "outside", those events will enter into your world and you will need to make a decision about what you're going to do about that.

I think Tolkien kept his distance from the dwarves in the interest of keeping them a mystery. I don't think there's any correlation to how he felt about dwarves in doing that, but it was his way to make sure that the audience did not know too much about the dwarves because he did not either. He did what he had to do as an author to make that happen.

[Periantari Andruil]

I think the role of the dwarves was to show that not everyone feels passionately about any or every issue - regardless of how big it appears to others. It was also an attempt to show how a policy of isolationism is not a practical one and that no matter how much you want to insulate yourself from what happens "outside", those events will enter into your world and you will need to make a decision about what you're going to do about that.


I think the isolationalist thought is very interesting.. since Tolkien fought in WWI and witnessed WWII, he definitely probably possessed thoughts about wanting to be passionate about politics and such... Tolkien's generation, with the TCBS group were all disillusioned after WWI... in relating to the dwarves, i always get the feeling that the dwarves from Erebor kept to themselves...
It's cool to have Tolkien have two groups of ME groups (dwarves and hobbits) wanting to keep to themselves and not venture out and learn more or help others... (though obviously the hobbits DO venture out on their Quest ;) )

:gimli:

i'll post another quote from Tolkien's Letters soon. ;) :thumbs: (and anyone's welcome to! =) :thumbs:

[Cassandria]

I think the isolationalist thought is very interesting.. since Tolkien fought in WWI and witnessed WWII, he definitely probably possessed thoughts about wanting to be passionate about politics and such... Tolkien's generation, with the TCBS group were all disillusioned after WWI... in relating to the dwarves, i always get the feeling that the dwarves from Erebor kept to themselves...
It's cool to have Tolkien have two groups of ME groups (dwarves and hobbits) wanting to keep to themselves and not venture out and learn more or help others... (though obviously the hobbits DO venture out on their Quest ;) )

:gimli:

i'll post another quote from Tolkien's Letters soon. ;) :thumbs: (and anyone's welcome to! =) :thumbs:It's such a coincidence that you mention Tolkien's feelings in regards to the wars ;) ...I was just reading Tolkien's letters to his son during WWII earlier today. :) Yes, he did feel passionate about the politics of it all, though not to get involved, but his disgust in it all... regarding the behavoir of humankind. One quote really struck me...
Letter number 81 to Christopher Tolkien...There was a solemn article in the local paper seriously advocating systematic exterminating of the entire German nation as the only proper course after military victory: because, if you please, they are rattlesnakes, and don't know the difference between good and evil! (What of the writer?) The Germans have just as much right to declare the Poles and Jews exterminable vermin, subhuman, as we have to select the Germans: in other words, no right, whatever they have done. Of course there is still a difference here. The article was answered, and the answer printed. The Vulgar and Ignorant Cad is not yet a boss with power; but he is a very great deal nearer to becoming one in this green and pleasant isle than he was. And all of that you know. Still you're not the only one who wants to let off steam or bust, sometimes; and I could make steam, if I opened the throttle, compared with which (as the Queen said to Alice) this would be only a scent-spray. It can't be helped. You can't fight the Enemy with his own Ring without turning into an Enemy; but unfortunately Gandalf's wisdom seems long ago to have passed with him into the True West. ....Oh such wise words! :thumbs: He was such a compassionate man!

Back to the dwarves...doesn't this passage from the Sil sound a little bit like a well known bible story? :) ;)
Then Aulë took up a great hammer to smite the Dwarves; and he wept. But Ilúvatar had compassion upon Aulë and his desire, because of his humility; and the Dwarves shrank from the hammer and wore afraid, and they bowed down their heads and begged for mercy. And the voice of Ilúvatar said to Aulë: 'Thy offer I accepted even as it was made. Dost thou not see that these things have now a life of their own, and speak with their own voices? Else they would not have flinched from thy blow, nor from any command of thy will.' Then Aulë cast down his hammer and was glad, and he gave thanks to Ilúvatar, saying: 'May Eru bless my work and amend it!

[ImDaMom]

I guess I never related the tale of Aule and the dwarves to Abraham and Isaac. Now I'll have to go back and read the Sil....:)

I think this is yet another similarity between JRR and the Hobbits- the desire for isolationism. After his time in battle, I'm sure he felt, as many soldiers feel, that he needed to care for his own family and friends, rather than fighting on foreign soil.

[Cassandria]

I think this is yet another similarity between JRR and the Hobbits- the desire for isolationism. After his time in battle, I'm sure he felt, as many soldiers feel, that he needed to care for his own family and friends, rather than fighting on foreign soil.Yes, I get the impression he felt that way too. He seems to me to be very much like Frodo; reluctant to support killing and the war unless necessity demanded it. Here is what he said along those lines:
Letter number 64 to Christopher Tolkien...The utter stupid waste of war, not only material but moral and spiritual, is so staggering to those who have to endure it. And always was (despite the poets), and always will be (despite the propagandists) – not of course that it has not is and will be necessary to face it in an evil world. But so short is human memory and so evanescent are its generations that in only about 30 years there will be few or no people with that direct experience which alone goes really to the heart. The burnt hand teaches most about fire.
I'll have to search for it, but I remember reading in one of Tolkien's earliest letters to his son, (after Christopher was deployed to Africa); he mentioned the desire to fight. Something to the effect that if he were able physically he would have made a better soldier than he was in the previous war; having a more mature outlook on the world.

[Aragorn]

I guess I never related the tale of Aule and the dwarves to Abraham and Isaac. Now I'll have to go back and read the Sil....:)

I think this is yet another similarity between JRR and the Hobbits- the desire for isolationism. After his time in battle, I'm sure he felt, as many soldiers feel, that he needed to care for his own family and friends, rather than fighting on foreign soil.

I'm going to disagree with this. When LOTR starts out, Frodo and hobbits in general do indeed practice their own type of isolationism. But as the story develops, we find that there are issues that are so important that even if they don't seem to affect you directly, you must accept a call to action and get involved.

What did the War of the Ring mean to the common hobbit? Not a hill of beans really, but they ignored it at their own peril. Frodo was able to see through this with help from Gandalf, and Frodo realized that in order to save what was closest to his heart, he would need to journey far and concern himself with things that seemed on the surface to have nothing to do with him and hobbits.

I think the interconnectivity of the world became known to Frodo, and when his journey was done and he returned home knowing what he now knew, home could never be the same again.

[ImDaMom]

Not really on the isolationism theme, but I'm particularly intrigued by the following:

In a letter to German publishers Rutten & Loening Veriag, July 1938 responding to a question from the firm as to whether he was of "arishc(aryan) origin): "I am not of Aryan extraction; that is Indo-iranian; as far as I am aware none of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regreat that I appear to have NO ancestors of that gifted people. ....I cannot, however, forbear to comment that if impertinent and irrelelvant inquiries of this sort are to become the rule in matters of literature, then the time is not far distant when a German name will no longer be a source of pride.

I'm pleased to know that JRR did NOT ascribe to the Aryan supremacy theory, and that he thought very little of the people who followed Adolf Hitler!

[Cassandria]

I am pleased too IDM, he was truly an honorable and compassionate man. :thumbs: It is nice to know he spoke his mind about such things in spite of his meager lifestyle; he didn't worry about whether the consequences of it would affect his wallet or not. :)

[Amithrellas]

It seems Tolkein saw straight to the heart of the matter in saying that "then the time is not far distant when a German name will no longer be a source of pride."

The issue of the Dwarves made me think of the wars and their impact upon Tolkein. The quality of the dwarf being "not naturally evil, not necessarily hostile" -- as one would assess an potetial ally from a foreign soil? They are a mystery because they are foreign... how does one gage the actions of a people from an alien culture? The wars were global in their effect -- bringing foreign ideas and cultures into close contact. Not always comfortably... good reason why Tolkein (and by extension, we) are not made altogether comfortable with dwarves.

[ImDaMom]

The more I read the letters, the more I have to believe that PJ must have read quite a few of them. In a letter to Naomi Richardson, he states "Tom Bombadil is not an important person-to the narrative." That should put an end to all those who still whine that TB was left out of the movies!!

[Cassandria]

:thumbs: That is a very good and thought provoking point Ami! It brings to mind the differences in culture and lifestyles I experienced traveling abroad in simple things such as, going out to find a bite to eat. Throw in the emotion, trauma and impact of war and I can imagine the discomfort that would be felt! And Tolkien did a very good job of bringing that feeling to the reader! ;)

I agree IDM, I get that impression also with certain things I read...I think both PJ and Philipa must have read the letters. I wonder if Ian McKellon may have read them too, because I see how well he captured Tolkien's personality in his portrayal of Gandalf. He did say however, that he saw a film of Tolkien. :cool:

And those who whine about Tom Bombadil not being in the movies simply do not understand the massive effort it takes to put a book to film. I'm sure we all have little parts of the books we desired to see in the movies, but unfortunately could not be included. Mine was Imrahil, but I understand the complexity and problems they would have had, introducing a new character so late in the story. Some people will whine just to whine. :-/ :rolleyes:

[Cassandria]

Okay dear friends, (and pardon the double post :p ), here is something new to get your Tolkien brain cells bubbling again. lol

What are your thoughts of this wonderful poem/tale?
What parts do you like the best and why?
What emotions do you feel upon reading it? ;)


Eärendil was a mariner
that tarried in Arvernien;
he built a boat of timber felled
in Nimbrethil to journey in;
her sails he wove of silver fair,
of silver were her lanterns made,
her prow was fashioned like a swan,
and light upon her banners laid.

In panoply of ancient kings,
in chainéd rings he armoured him;
his shining shield was scored with runes
to ward all wounds and harm from him;
his bow was made of dragon-horn,
his arrows shorn of ebony,
of silver was his habergeon,
his scabbard of chalcedony;
his sword of steel was valiant,
of adamant his helmet tall,
an eagle-plume upon his crest,
upon his breast an emerald.

Beneath the Moon and under star
he wandered far from northern strands,
bewildered on enchanted ways
beyond the days of mortal lands.
From gnashing of the Narrow Ice
where shadow lies on frozen hills,
from nether heats and burning waste
he turned in haste, and roving still
on starless waters far astray
at last he came to Night of Naught,
and passed, and never sight he saw
of shining shore nor light he sought.

The winds of wrath came driving him,
and blindly in the foam he fled
from west to east and errandless,
unheralded he homeward sped.

There flying Elwing came to him,
and flame was in the darkness lit;
more bright than light of diamond
the fire upon her carcanet.
The Silmaril she bound on him
and crowned him with the living light
and dauntless then with burning brow
he turned his prow; and in the night
from Otherworld beyond the Sea
there strong and free a storm arose,
a wind of power in Tarmenel;
by paths that seldom mortal goes
his boat it bore with biting breath
as might of death across the grey
and long-forsaken seas distressed:
from east to west he passed away.

Through Evernight he back was borne
on black and roaring waves that ran
o'er leagues unlit and foundered shores
that drowned before the Days began,
until he heard on strands of pearl
when ends the world the music long,
where ever foaming billows roll
the yellow gold and jewels wan.
He saw the Mountain silent rise
where twilight lies upon the knees
of Valinor, and Eldamar
beheld afar beyond the seas.
A wanderer escaped from night
to haven white he came at last,
to Elvenhome the green and fair
where keen the air, where pale as glass
beneath the Hill of Ilmarin
a-glimmer in a valley sheer
the lamplit towers of Tirion
are mirrored on the Shadowmere.

He tarried there from errantry,
and melodies they taught to him,
and sages old him marvels told,
and harps of gold they brought to him.
They clothed him then in elven-white,
and seven lights before him sent,
as through the Calacirian
to hidden land forlorn he went.
He came unto the timeless halls
where shining fall the countless years,
and endless reigns the Elder King
in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer;
and words unheard were spoken then
of folk of Men and Elven-kin,
beyond the world were visions showed
forbid to those that dwell therein.

A ship then new they built for him
of mithril and of elven-glass
with shining prow; no shaven oar
nor sail she bore on silver mast:
the Silmaril as lantern light
and banner bright with living flame
to gleam thereon by Elbereth
herself was set, who thither came
and wings immortal made for him,
and laid on him undying doom,
to sail the shoreless skies and come
behind the Sun and light of Moon.

From Evereven's lofty hills
where softly silver fountains fall
his wings him bore, a wandering light,
beyond the mighty Mountain Wall.
From World's End then he turned away
and yearned again to find afar
his home through shadows journeying,
and burning as an island star
on high above the mists he came,
a distant flame before the Sun,
a wonder ere the waking dawn
where grey the Norland waters run.

And over Middle-earth he passed
and heard at last the weeping sore
of women and of elven-maids
in Elder Days, in years of yore.
But on him mighty doom was laid,
till Moon should fade, an orbéd star
to pass, and tarry never more
on Hither Shores where mortals are;
for ever still a herald on
an errand that should never rest
to bear his shining lamp afar,
the Flammifer of Westernesse.

[ImDaMom]

That is one of my favorite poems by Bilbo. Evokes lots of images, and he does a great job of distilling the story of Earindil to a few lines.

for ever still a herald on
an errand that should never rest
to bear his shining lamp afar,
the Flammifer of Westernesse.

This is such a sad stanza....."never rest" is such a scary thought!!! But so beautiful that his efforts should be rewarded this way!

[Cassandria]

I love the story of Eärendil! It is such a romantic and heroic tale! Not only is the idea fascinating and original, he also used such beautiful words. Wow, what an imagination! It makes me want to look up at the stars at night. :)

Just look at how magnificent Eärendil looked:

of silver was his habergeon,
his scabbard of chalcedony;
his sword of steel was valiant,
of adamant his helmet tall,
an eagle-plume upon his crest,
upon his breast an emerald.

I agree his doom is frightening and it also seems so sad, that he will never go home again...tarry never more on Hither Shores where mortals are. It reminds me of the doom that fell upon Frodo as he sought healing. :(

[Cassandria]

Hey all, just a reminder of what this thread is all about...we are here to critique, indulge and study the writings of Tolkien. Your comments, observations, and opinions are most welcome! :cool: Also, if you have a passage you would like to discuss...feel free to post! ;)

Here is a passage that caught my eye last night while reading The Letters of JRR Tolkien. He even wrote beautifully in his letters to his son...

#94 To Christopher Tolkien 28 December 1944
My dearest:
...We woke (late) on St Stephen's Day to find all our windows opaque, painted over with frost-patterns, and outside a dim silent misty world, all white, but with a light jewelry of rime; every cobweb a little lace net, even the old fowls' tent a diamond-patterned pavilion. I spent the day (after chores, that is from about 11.30, as I got up late) out of doors, well wrapped up in old rags, hewing old brambles and making a fire the smoke of which rose in a still unmoving column straight up into the fog-roof. .... The rime was yesterday even thicker and more fantastic. When a gleam of sun (about 11) got through it was breathtakingly beautiful: trees like motionless fountains of white branching spray against a golden light and, high overhead, a pale translucent blue. It did not melt. About 11 p.m. the fog cleared and a high round moon lit the whole scene with a deadly white light: a vision of some other world or time. It was so still that I stood in the garden hatless and uncloaked without a shiver, though there must have been many degrees of frost...

Isn't it sweet the way he put love in his letters to his son, starting them all with "My Dearest". :) Gosh, his discriptions of that day were so poetic! I love the impact of "a deadly white light" and the fantasy of "a vision of some other world or time". What do you think? :)

[ImDaMom]

I always get the feeling, reading these letters, that somehow he KNEW that somewhere, someday, people would be reading them. You can see so many things that he later used in his stories (a vision of some other world or time) that I get the sense of how much the Sil and LOTR permeated his entire life. I look at the letters or emails I send my kids or parents, and somehow, they just don't have the lyrical qualities, more's the pity! :)

[Periantari Andruil]

wow a beautiful selection indeed, Cass! :thumbs:

It reminds me of this passage from his letter #79:

"Here I am at the best end of the day again. THe most marvellous sunset I have seen for years: a remote pale green-blue sea just above the horizon, and above it a towering shore of bank upon bank of laming cherubim of gold and fire, crossed here and there by misty blurs like purple rain. It may portend some celestial merriment in the morn, as the glass is rising.

I think i might've posted this elsewhere but i think it ties in nicely with what was quoted by Cass and what IDM said about his letter writing probably wanted to be published sometime too!

:thumbs: =)

[Cassandria]

Oh! I loved that passage too Peri! '...towering shore of bank upon bank of laming cherubim of gold and fire...' It brings chills to me! :thud:

Now for another :)...

There were three passages in The Hobbit that referred to ‘the Necromancer’. It stirred in me, extreme interest and curiosity of the back story behind these words? I did not know with my first reading, that The LotR even existed. Imagine my delight when my brother presented me with the trilogy! :grin:

"Your grandfather," said the wizard slowly and grimly, "gave the map to his son for safety before he went to the mines of Moria. Your father went away to try his luck with the map after your grandfather was killed; and lots of adventures of a most unpleasant sort he had, but he never got near the Mountain. How he got there I don't know, but I found him a prisoner in the dungeons of the Necromancer."
"Whatever were you doing there?" asked Thorin with a shudder, and all the dwarves shivered.
"Never you mind. I was finding things out, as usual; and a nasty dangerous business it was. Even I, Gandalf, only just escaped. I tried to save your father, but it was too late. He was witless and wandering, and had forgotten almost everything except the map and the key." "We have long ago paid the goblins of Moria," said Thorin; "we must give a thought to the Necromancer." "Don't be absurd! He is an enemy quite beyond the powers of all the dwarves put together, if they could all be collected again from the four corners of the world.


"There is, if you care to go two hundred miles or so out of your way north, and twice that south. But you wouldn't get a safe path even then. There are no safe paths in this part of the world. Remember you are over the Edge of the Wild now, and in for all sorts of fun wherever you go. Before you could get round Mirkwood in the North you would be right among the slopes of the Grey Mountains, and they are simply stiff with goblins, hobgoblins, and rest of the worst description. Before you could get round it in the South, you would get into the land of the Necromancer; and even you. Bilbo, won't need me to tell you tales of that black sorcerer. I don't advise you to go anywhere near the places overlooked by his dark tower!



…he learned where Gandalf had been to; for he overheard the words of the wizard to Elrond. It appeared that Gandalf had been to a great council of the white wizards, masters of lore and good magic; and that they had at last driven the Necromancer from his dark hold in the south of Mirkwood.
"Ere long now," Gandalf was saying, "The Forest will grow somewhat more wholesome. The North will be freed from that horror for many long years, I hope. Yet I wish he were banished from the world!"
"It would be well indeed," said Elrond; "but I fear that will not come about in this age of the world, or for many after."


‘"Whatever were you doing there?" asked Thorin with a shudder,…’ :o these words sure made me shutter! :elfeek: lol Black Sorcerers and White wizards! :o I wanted to know more so bad! Tolkien’s Gandalf succeeded in bringing so many emotions to me; fright, curiosity :blink: , apprehension, wariness, and finally relief! :thud:

How many of you experienced the same as I? What was your reaction when you first read about the Necromancer? :stomper:

[Periantari Andruil]

I was just reading those passages to my sister a few nights ago! and that indeed made my sister shudder in bed. lol (i comforted her though and told her that she's very safe. ;) ) :cuddles:

I love those passages you quoted Cassie! One of the things that struck me from reading the first 5 chapters of the HObbit outloud to my sister is the many times that Tolkien mentioned Bilbo thinking back to his home, (and not for the last time). =) Certainly there is a home yearning in his heart and imagine him listening to that story in the beginning about the reasons for the Quest would make anyone daunted at it.

When i first read about the Necromancer, i was confused on what it was and wasn't so worried about it because i haven't read LotR yet.... but now it all makes sense after reading LotR three times, THe HObbit on my second time, the Sil and Unfinished Tales greatly made me fear the Necromancer. lol

Another passage that I found very interesting: (yes finally, i'm posting something. ;) :cool: )


I dislike Allegory --the conscious and intentional allegory--yet any attempt to explain the purport of myth or fairytale must use allegorical language. (And, of course, the more 'life' a story has the more readily will it be susceptible of allegorical interpretations: while the better a deliberate allegory is made the more nearly will it be acceptable just as a story.) Anyway all this stuff is mainly concerned with Fall, Mortality, and the Machine."
Letter 131, Letters of JRRT

I'm always intrigued that even though many people critiqued Tolkien's work to be "allegorical", Tolkien has again and again said that LotR wasn't, and that he made it out to be kind of like a "mythology" of ENgland. I just love how he mentions this in not only his letters but also in the Prologue of FotR as well. What is everyone else's thoughts on the passages from THe Hobbit or this passage about allegory? To what extent can we think that Tolkien invented something allegorical without meaning to? Or shoudl we just ignore those scholars who think that Tolkien really wanted to base LotR to real life?

:thumbs:

[Cassandria]

I think that Tolkien was forgiving "...the more 'life' a story has the more readily will it be susceptible of allegorical interpretations..." and understood that because his writings sounded historical instead of story-like, many people would apply allegorical meanings to them. It is a natural reflex. And because he wrote in such a historical way, to every extent he invented something allegorical without meaning to? :cool: And the allegory could be different for each individual, as we all are so different in the ways we see the world and interpret things. ;) We can ignore the fact that people do this, if it makes us uncomfortable, or listen and muse over them. But we should never assume that it was intentional...Tolkien was very clear about that. ;)

[Elfdaughter]

Agreed - Tolkien never MEANT for LOTR to stand as an allegory for the World Wars, or for any of the other allegories people see in them, but becuse he wrote the book in such a way, it leaves it open for people to superimpose the meanings in. I think this is why the book is so universally accepted, and is still enjoyed so much today - because peole can see whatever meanings in it that they want to see.

Please forgive the atrocious grammar....it's 4am....

[Aragorn]

Like all writers, Tolkien used his experience of the world as an influence for his story. We can't go through life and not be influenced by things around us, and especially things that greatly influence us.

What was important to Tolkien? Nature, family, simple things like food and "pipeweed", loyalty. What were great influences on Tolkien? The war, religion, language, his interaction with his friends. You can add more to both of these answers, but all of these things play very important roles in LOTR.

By drawing on what was important to him and what affected him deeply as his emotional source, he then used his story telling skills to build more than just a story, but an entire world that he could then share with us. LOTR is more than just the story that is presented; it is the story of Tolkien himself.

[Cassandria]

That is so true Aragorn! And through all the work and all that he poured into it, as his life experiences and deepest feelings were expressed; can you imagine the love he must have had for his books in the end?

Lets look at some quotes from The Silmarillion, Ainulindalë, The Music of the Ainur

...And he spoke to them, propounding to them themes of music; and they sang before him, and he was glad. But for a long while they sang only each alone, or but few together, while the rest hearkened; for each comprehended only that part of the mind of Ilúvatar from which he came, and in the understanding of their brethren they grew but slowly. Yet ever as they listened they came to deeper understanding, and increased in unison and harmony...

...Then the voices of the Ainur, like unto harps and lutes, and pipes and trumpets, and viols and organs, and like unto countless choirs singing with words, began to fashion the theme of Ilúvatar to a great music; and a sound arose of endless interchanging melodies woven in harmony that passed beyond hearing into the depths and into the heights, and the places of the dwelling of Ilúvatar were filled to overflowing, and the music and the echo of the music went out into the Void, and it was not void. Never since have the Ainur made any music like to this music, though it has been said that a greater still shall be made before Ilúvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Ilúvatar after the end of days. Then the themes of Ilúvatar shall be played aright, and take Being in the moment of their utterance, for all shall then understand fully his intent in their part, and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Ilúvatar shall give to their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased.

...Ilúvatar said to them: 'Behold your Music!' And he showed to them a vision, giving to them sight where before was only hearing; and they saw a new World made visible before them, and it was globed amid the Void, and it was sustained therein, but was not of it. And as they looked and wondered this World began to unfold its history, and it seemed to them that it lived and grew. And when the Ainur had gazed for a while and were silent, Ilúvatar said again: 'Behold your Music! This is your minstrelsy; and each of you shall find contained herein, amid the design that I set before you, all those things which it may seem that he himself devised or added.

What a unique imagination this man had, to create the concept of bringing the world to being through song! I have often wondered if Tolkien actually heard the music in his head as he wrote. Can you imagine how glorious the sound might have been within his mind, to move him to write these words!!!..."interchanging melodies woven in harmony that passed beyond hearing into the depths and into the heights, and the places of the dwelling of Ilúvatar were filled to overflowing"And I often wonder how he felt, when he read and re-read his own works. It must have been quite a thrill. I get the impression when reading his letters that he was proud of it all and definitely just as obsessed with Middle Earth as we are! ;)

[Stormcrow]

I get that too! He is amazing! His writing is so unique! :grin:

[Elfdaughter]

Oh, I know! Tolkien's imagination spanned worlds - literally! To create an entire mythology from one man's own imagination - he really was a genius.

[Stormcrow]

ED, I don't think 'genius' is a strong enough word...

:grin:

[Cassandria]

:) Our dear Professor had a very nice review of his work "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil" where he was called genius...

From The Letters of JRR Tolkien...footnote #1 from letter #242 ...the Listener on 22 November 1962 (p. 831)...
'superb technical skill.... something close to genius'. :cool:

[Stormcrow]

I still think something along the lines of 'perfectly writing, amazingly super person with incredibly superb skill' would be more along the lines of Tolkein. :grin:

[Cassandria]

:) Tis true Stormcrow...'superb skill' and he had it all of his life...

Letter # 163 To W. H. Auden 7 June 1955...To turn, if I may, to the 'human Touches' and the matter of when I started. That is rather like asking of Man when language started. It was an inevitable, though conditionable, evolvement of the birth-given. It has been always with me: the sensibility to linguistic pattern which affects me emotionally like colour or music; and the passionate love of growing things; and the deep response to legends...:rose:

[Stormcrow]

That is a great quote Cassandria! I think it is perfect for what Tolkein was. It sums him up. He had such love for his work, and passion and committment. What Tolkein did with LOTR was beyond belief, it was spectacular.

[Periantari Andruil]

Beautiful quote, Cassie! :thumbs: I wish all of us can feel that way towards something we love.
How beautifully written by him though~ i so <3 it.
And next post, i'll write something from his works too~
Thanks for sharing so much these days, Cassie and thanks to STormcrow for your continued enthusiasm! :) :thumbs:

[Stormcrow]

Beautiful quote, Cassie! :thumbs: I wish all of us can feel that way towards something we love.
How beautifully written by him though~ i so <3 it.
And next post, i'll write something from his works too~
Thanks for sharing so much these days, Cassie and thanks to STormcrow for your continued enthusiasm! :) :thumbs:

Aw! Thanks PA! This is just such a great place! And it is so great being around so many other LOTR & Tolkein fanatics! :grin:

:grouphug:

[Periantari Andruil]

::repeats after myself:: :p

Quote to think about of Stormcrow's favorite character. ;) :gandalf:


"Though he may seem testy at times, has a sense of humour, and adopts a somewhat avuncular attitude to hobbits, he is a person of high and noble authority, and great dignity." from letter 210 from a letter to Forrest J. Ackerman in the film treatment of LotR back in 1958.

Tolkien had issues with the first time someone approached him back them to adapt his books and obviously had issues with Mr. Ackerman's proposal. Will post more of that if anyone's interested but ... what is everyone's views or thoughts about Gandalf's character either through the book or movie's portrayals?
:gandalf:

[Stormcrow]

To sum it up, I would have to say sheer perfection. The book character was the leader, the commander. He was powerful, wise, intelligent, loving, strong, determined and utterly amazing. If it wasn't for Gandalf, the dark lord would have claimed the lands. Gandalf was the one who weaved the plan for the great war between good and evil, he forsaw men, elves and dwarves fighting alongside one another. He turned the tide. As of Ian's portrayal, I am gonna once again say sheer perfection. He dominated the screen with his amazingly accurate portrayal of the lovable wizard. Just brilliant.

To sum up my post into one word...

Perfection. :grin:

[Periantari Andruil]

Were there any differences that you could perceive between movie!Gandalf and book!Gandalf? I find it particularly interesting that Tolkien described Gandalf to be "avuncular" as we see that right from the beginning in the movies with him hugging Frodo and being very friendly to Bilbo as well.
However, i disagree, STRONGLY disagree with him wacking Denethor in RotK. :-/ :-/ :blink: that was just wrong and totally undignified and contrary to what Tolkien said about him.
So those are two points i would like to make...
disagreements? agreement? =)

[Stormcrow]

I actually thought Ian played Gandalf down to a tea. He was perfect for the character, and yes I admit there are a few differences from movie to book, but they are all good changes. :)

And what was so bad about Gandalf whacking Denethor? It was fantastic! I loved that part so much! Denethor deserved it. He was a psyco. lol It brought so much more to Gandalf's character, like how much he thought of Denethor for example. Denethor was telling everyone to abandon their posts and flee for their lives, so Gandalf knocked him out. :p How could that be so bad to you?

[ImDaMom]

I thought PJ's Gandalf was as close as possible to JRR's, and I believe the dear Prof would have been pleased. But I agree with PA that Gandalf knocking the applepie out of Denethor was not appropriate. Denethor was not in his right mind, there is no doubt. He was going a bit bonkers, and needed to be taken down. But it was so out of character for Gandalf, that I cringed when I first saw it. Gandalf respected Denethor, and understood D's despair. Gandalf knew that D was suffering as Theoden had under Saruman's spell, and wanted to bring D back to reality, to lead Gondor until Aragorn's arrival.

[Stormcrow]

Well, if Denethor was telling the men to leave the city defenceless, Gandalf had to do something about it. And I don't think it was out of his character at all. I am a big Gandalf fan, and I know plenty about G, but I think it was fairly like Gandalf to do that in that circumstance. It wasn't bad at all. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I really couldn't care less about Denethor's so called 'despair' he got pommelled because he needed pommelling, in my opinion. Besides, everyone I know loved that addition. I see it as brilliant. :p

Oh, ImDaMom, I think also that Tolkein would be thoroughly pleased and satisfied with Ian playing Gandalf. He is the best man for the part. :)

[Cassandria]

Gosh it has been a while since I've posted some of the dear Professors words in here! :blush:

Well, tell me what you all think of this...

From a Letter #64 To Christopher Tolkien 30 April 1944
Christopher had been sent off to war...

My dearest:...Oh how I love the way he started his letters to his son! :rose:

...And you were so special a gift to me, in a time of sorrow and mental suffering, and your love, opening at once almost as soon as you were born, foretold to me, as it were in spoken words, that I am consoled ever by the certainty that there is no end to this. Probable under God that we shall meet again, 'in hale and in unity', before very long, dearest, and certain that we have some special bond to last beyond this life... Wow, what a sweet and loving Father! :)

Here, he had been describing to Christopher what he wrote about Frodo and Sams journeys...

...A large elephant of prehistoric size, a war-elephant of the Swertings, is loose, and Sam has gratified a life-long wish to see an Oliphaunt, an animal about which there was a hobbit nursery-rhyme (though it was commonly supposed to be mythical). In the chapter next to be done they will get to Kirith Ungol and Frodo will be caught. Here is the rhyme cited by Sam: Grey as a mouse,/Big as a house,/Nose like a snake,/I make the earth quake,/As I tramp through the grass ;/Trees crack as I pass./With horns in my mouth/I walk in the South/Flapping big ears./Beyond count of years/I've stumped round and round,/Never lie on the ground,/Not even to die./Oliphaunt am I,/Biggest of All,/huge, old, and tall./If ever you'd met me,/You wouldn't forget me./If you never do,/You won't think I'm trues/But old Oliphaunt am I,/and I never lie. I hope that has something of the 'nursery rhyme' flavour. On the whole Sam is behaving well, and living up to repute. He treats Gollum rather like Ariel to Caliban. ....Ahhhh So cute!!!


...It is full Maytime by the trees and grass now. But the heavens are full of roar and riot. You cannot even hold a shouting conversation in the garden now, save about 1 a.m. and 7 p.m. – unless the day is too foul to be out. How I wish the 'infernal combustion' engine had never been invented. Or (more difficult still since humanity and engineers in special are both nitwitted and malicious as a rule) that it could have been put to rational uses — if any. .... I agree! And I have felt this way all of my life...wishing we were still safely riding horses! lol Yet I am as nitwitted as the next person by conforming and doing the expected thing. It is too hard to survive in this world now without it...besides, :blush: I just love my PT Cruiser. lol Still, it breaks my heart everytime I see a dead animal on the road, the ugliness of the highway, or a bad accident. :(

And finally, more on the war and missing his son...

...Now we can only link with this flimsy bit of paper! But may it speed to you and arrive safely. I wish that it might be written in Runes beyond the craft of Celebrimbor of Hollin, shining like silver, filled with the visions and horizons that open in my mind. Though I have without you no one to speak my thought. I first began to write the 'H. of the Gnomes'1 in army huts, crowded, filled with the noise of gramophones – and there you are in the same prison. May you, too, escape – strengthened. Take care of yourself, in soul and body, in all ways proper and possible, for the love that you have to your own Father.*sigh*

[Holbytla]

Oh how I love the way he started his letters to his son!

Yes! And also how he closed:
Your Own Father

So lovely.

I'd forgotten how much I loved the Oliphaunt rhyme. Sam's songs always end up being my favorites, like the one about the Stone Trolls and the one he sang in the Tower of Cirith Ungol. They seem to resonate with me like no other

[Periantari Andruil]

I love Sam's rhymes too, Holbytla! and i especially loved the one at Cirith Ungol :D Mae Govannen Mellon nin! so nice to see you in here. :cuddles:

Anyways--i've been rereading FoTR and i love Tolkien's foreword in the beginning:
This entry ties in well to an author not being wholly unaffected by his own experiences...


"An author cannot of course remain wholly unaffected by his experience, but the ways in which a story-germ uses the soil of experience are extremely compelx, and attempts to define the process are at best guesses from evidence that is inadequate and ambtious. It is also false, though naturally attractice, when the lives of an author and critic have overlapped, to suppose that the movements of thought or the events of times common to both were necessarily the most powerful influences. ....."
~Foreword to Fellowship of the Ring

There's been so much debate on the "allegory" of LotR that this quote is intersting to read about since the paragraph goes on to describe Tolkien's experiences in the World Wars and the close friends he's lost... I haven't read John Garth's "Tolkien and the Great War" yet but i know that it's a whole book that talks about the wars and the influence it has on Tolkien... ( i have thread about it though... and i'll edit this and put it in later though... ;) )

more thoughts from me later...i can ramble...heh :p

what does everyone else think? (or you can post your own passage ;) )

:thumbs:

[Stormcrow]

I am so amazed every time I read that foreword by the amazing use of vocabulary Tolkein used in describing his works. ;)

[Cassandria]

I think too many people misinterpret Tolkien's intentions by getting allegory mixed up with experience. Just because an author draws from his past life experiences to tell his story, does not mean that he was placing some kind of political or moral meaning behind the words. Yes, it is complex for the experiences he had may be vast within the smallest part of the story. I've experienced that myself in writing, as I'm sure all authors feel from time to time. But that does not mean he is driven to pass along some kind of message. It is merely sharing many aspects of his life in one small part or the whole of the story. ;)

Tolkien said in one letter, referring to life experiences effecting his work:

The darkness of the present days has had some effect on it. But he was very quick to say in the next sentence...Though it is not an 'allegory'.

[Holbytla]

Hey there Peri!! :cuddles:

I think too many people misinterpret Tolkien's intentions by getting allegory mixed up with experience. Just because an author draws from his past life experiences to tell his story, does not mean that he was placing some kind of political or moral meaning behind the words. Yes, it is complex for the experiences he had may be vast within the smallest part of the story. I've experienced that myself in writing, as I'm sure all authors feel from time to time. But that does not mean he is driven to pass along some kind of message. It is merely sharing many aspects of his life in one small part or the whole of the story. ;)

I agree. I was reading in my Language Arts book the other day, and it was saying how most authors draw from life experiences to write their stories. That's what makes them good because while it's not exactly what happened to them, it adds a feeling of reality.

[Stormcrow]

Yes, I couldn't agree more. People tend to confuse experience with allegory. Using exerience from your own life doesn't neccessarily mean you are using allegory at all. It simply means that a particular aspect of the said story is under a particular influence of the author and his past or present experiences. Things such as emotion from dark times, just like Cassandria's quote:

The darkness of the present days has had some effect on it. Though it is not an 'allegory'.

[Periantari Andruil]

This passage from HIstory of Lord of the RIngs, The End fo the Third Age came up when i was talking with Cassie on AIM this evening.
Once i quote it here, i can always know where to search so i can cut and paste everywhere. ;)
And if i had already posted this somewhere in the Prof, forgive me. ;) ;)


"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done woudl have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels shoudl give them new names: Bronwe ahtan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad, Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable. ~End of the Third Age from Sauron Defeated in THe History of Lord of the Rings (part of History of Middle-Earth)

oK..how does this relate to the Professor? Well Tolkien had this in earlier drafts which didn't make it to his final version of ROtK... why is that? Wouldn't it be so cool had he included this? There was much that Tolkien didn't include but this really makes me wish he did... so very much. I hope Tolkien can provide answers somewhere... heh...

But yeah, the bottom line is that Tolkien has throughout mentioned how much valour and respect the hobbits had gathered in the wide world of Middle Earth. From Bilbo's adventures to Frodo, Sam, Merry and PIppin's adventures, the hobbits have indeed shaped the course of history of Middle Earth.

And remember, Tolkien thought himself to be a hobbit too in one of his letters... ;) (in which i think i quoted in the Letters of JRR Tolkien thread in here ;) )

ok... now to bed. :p

:frodo: :sam: :rose: :rose:
^*^ I so love these characters that JRR invented!!!!!!
:loveyou: so love. <3

[Holbytla]

I thought that was in RotK :read: but I checked and nope. Strange because I don't have The End fo the Third Age, but I know that paragraph. Sorry to doubt you mellon nin! Maybe you posted it in your journal before?? ;)
but anyway.

I wish it was in there too, but at least we have all those "History of..." books, right?! :grin:
I love how most of the characters had many names. Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable. You can't sum them up any better, I think.

[Cassandria]

I just love that quote! :rose: And I wish Tolkien had used it too. :)

:frodo: Frodo gave up hope many times throughout his quest, yet his endurance beyond hope was phenomenal! ;)
‘Look here, Sam dear lad,’ said Frodo: ‘I am tired, weary, I haven’t a hope left. But I have to go on trying to get to the Mountain, as long as I can move.
and
I never hoped to get across. I can’t see any hope of it now. But I’ve still got to do the best I can.

And Sam :sam: continued to urge him on, in hope unquenchable to the very fires of Mordor.
Never for long had hope died in his staunch heart...
and
‘I’ll get there, if I leave everything but my bones behind,’ said Sam. ‘And I’ll carry Mr. Frodo up myself, if it breaks my back and heart.'

It would have been perfect! :thumbs:

[Stormcrow]

That section was so remarkable. Almost enough to bring a tear to my eye. Such an emotionally powerful part of ROTK.

[Cassandria]

Today it will be just a short but truly sweet post...:)

I found this at the end of one of our dear Professor's letters:

All graces and cheer at Christmas
Ronald Tolkien

Merry Christmas everyone! :cuddles:

[Stormcrow]

Yes, indeed! I hope everyone had a wonderful christmas! I just love how Tolkein says things! lol

[Cassandria]

In honor of the dear Professor's birthday, here is a letter he wrote that speaks of one of his most memorable birthdays ever! ;)
43 From a letter to Michael Tolkien 6-8 March 1941 [On the subject of marriage and relations between the sexes.]
...I fell in love with your mother at the approximate age of 18. Quite genuinely, as has been shown – though of course defects of character and temperament have caused me often to fall below the ideal with which I started. Your mother was older than I, and not a Catholic. Altogether unfortunate, as viewed by a guardian.1 And it was in a sense very unfortunate; and in a way very bad for me. These things are absorbing and nervously exhausting. I was a clever boy in the throes of work for (a very necessary) Oxford scholarship. The combined tensions nearly produced a bad breakdown. I muffed my exams and though (as years afterwards my H[ead] M[aster] told me) I ought to have got a good scholarship, I only landed by the skin of my teeth an exhibition of £60 at Exeter: just enough with a school leaving scholarship] of the same amount to come up on (assisted by my dear old guardian). Of course there was a credit side, not so easily seen by the guardian. I was clever, but not industrious or single-minded; a large pan of my failure was due simply to not working (at least not at classics) not because I was in love, but because I was studying something else: Gothic and what not.2 Having the romantic upbringing I made a boy-and-girl affair serious, and made it the source of effort. Naturally rather a physical coward, I passed from a despised rabbit on a house second-team to school colours in two seasons. All that sort of thing. However, trouble arose: and I had to choose between disobeying and grieving (or deceiving) a guardian who had been a father to me, more than most real fathers, but without any obligation, and 'dropping' the love-affair until I was 21. I don't regret my decision, though it was very hard on my lover. But that was not my fault. She was perfectly free and under no vow to me, and I should have had no just complaint (except according to the unreal romantic code) if she had got married to someone else. For very nearly three years I did not see or write to my lover. It was extremely hard, painful and bitter, especially at first. The effects were not wholly good: I fell back into folly and slackness and misspent a good deal of my first year at College. But I don't think anything else would have justified marriage on the basis of a boy's affair; and probably nothing else would have hardened the will enough to give such an affair (however genuine a case of true love) permanence. On the night of my 21st birthday I wrote again to your mother – Jan. 3, 1913. On Jan. 8th I went back to her, and became engaged, and informed an astonished family. I picked up my socks and did a spot of work (too late to save Hon. Mods.3 from disaster) – and then war broke out the next year, while I still had a year to go at college. In those days chaps joined up, or were scorned publicly. It was a nasty cleft to be in, especially for a young man with too much imagination and little physical courage. No degree: no money: fiancée. I endured the obloquy, and hints becoming outspoken from relatives, stayed up, and produced a First in Finals in 1915. Bolted into the army: July 1915. I found the situation intolerable and married on March 22, 1916. May found me crossing the Channel (I still have the verse I wrote on the occasion!)4 for the carnage of the Somme.

[Holbytla]

I don't think I'll tire of hearing that tale. :sigh: Very appropriate Cass!
It also goes to show you what is worth having is worth waiting for, no matter how much grief it gives you at the time. (A lesson I still can't seem to completely practice :blush: )

I think it's time I finally contribute to the thread:

The trouble is that 'Hobbit talk' amuses me privately (and certainly to a degree also my boy Christopher) more than adventures; but I must curb this severely. -Letter 28

I am personally immensely amused by Hobbits as such, and can contemplate them eating and making their rather fatuous jokes indefinitely; but I find that is not the case with even my most devoted 'fans' (such as Mr Lewis, and ? Rayner Unwin). Mr Lewis says hobbits are only amusing when in unhobbitlike situations. - Letter 31

I don't know how much of a discussion these passages would raise, but I love the fact Tolkien was a fan of his own characters as much as I am. I wish he would have written more about Sam, Merry and Pippin after WotR, perhaps Frodo, too. I recall the Prof. said he started to but there was nothing left he could tell and it not be redundant. Which is probably true, but there is so much I would like to know. Such is the case with things like this.

Forgive me if those letters had been previously posted.

[Cassandria]

I don't think I'll tire of hearing that tale. :sigh: Very appropriate Cass!
It also goes to show you what is worth having is worth waiting for, no matter how much grief it gives you at the time. (A lesson I still can't seem to completely practice :blush: )*sigh* indeed! ;) Those words of wisdom that you gave are very wise! ;) (and you are not alone in the struggle to practice them :blush: )

I too wish to know more about the lives of the Hobbits after the wotr. :mmmm: Well, one good thing came from it...he left that part open for other writers to have fun with the possibilities! :cool: I have immensely enjoyed using my own imagination to fill in those spaces. veryhappy

I also enjoyed reading your selections :thumbs: and enjoyed your comments. It matters not whether the letters have already been posted here or not. If a passage generates a thought, then that is what this thread is all about...sharing those thoughts. ;) And speaking of which...your post generated a thought for me and I recalled a letter of which he had to defend his conception of 'hobbits'. :)

Letter #25 To the editor of the 'Observer'
[On 16 January 1938, the Observer published a letter, signed 'Habit', asking whether hobbits might have been suggested to Tolkien by Julian Huxley's account of 'the "little furry men" seen in Africa by natives and .... at least one scientist'. The letter-writer also mentioned that a friend had 'said she remembered an old fairy tale called "The Hobbit" in a collection read about 1904', in which the creature of that name 'was definitely frightening'. The writer asked if Tolkien would 'tell us some more about the name and inception of the intriguing hero of his book. .... It would save so many research students so very much trouble in the generations to come... ]
Tolkien's reply: Sir, – I need no persuasion: I am as susceptible as a dragon to flattery, and would gladly show off my diamond waistcoat, and even discuss its sources, since the Habit (more inquisitive than the Hobbit) has not only professed to admire it, but has also asked where I got it from. But would not that be rather unfair to the research students? To save them trouble is to rob them of any excuse for existing.
However, with regard to the Habit's principal question there is no danger: I do not remember anything about the name and inception of the hero. I could guess, of course, but the guesses would have no more authority than those of future researchers, and I leave the game to them.
I was born in Africa, and have read several books on African exploration. I have, since about 1896, read even more books of fairy-tales of the genuine kind. Both the facts produced by the Habit would appear, therefore, to be significant.
But are they? I have no waking recollection of furry pigmies (in book or moonlight); nor of any Hobbit bogey in print by 1904. I suspect that the two hobbits are accidental homophones, and am content that they are not (it would seem) synonyms. And I protest that my hobbit did not live in Africa, and was not furry, except about the feet. Nor indeed was he like a rabbit. He was a prosperous, well-fed young bachelor of independent means. Calling him a 'nassty little rabbit' was a piece of vulgar trollery, just as 'descendant of rats' was a piece of dwarfish malice — deliberate insults to his size and feet, which he deeply resented. His feet, if conveniently clad and shod by nature, were as elegant as his long, clever fingers.
'which he deeply resented' roflmao He sure stood up for his hobbits well, didn't he! ;) :thumbs: Yes, he truly loved his lil hobbits! :cool:

[Holbytla]

I am as susceptible as a dragon to flattery, and would gladly show off my diamond waistcoat, and even discuss its sources, since the Habit (more inquisitive than the Hobbit) has not only professed to admire it, but has also asked where I got it from. But would not that be rather unfair to the research students? To save them trouble is to rob them of any excuse for existing.

Ah, I adore his wit! I wish I could weave words like him.

A gem of a letter.
I wonder if he got annoyed with people acusing him of yanking the idea of Hobbits from other books. He did at one point say (I wish I could find the letter!) he did recall as a boy reading something sort of simialr, unless I'm horribly wrong. Was it "The Wonderful World of Snergs"? drat.

[Cassandria]

:grin: It was letter 163 to W. H. Auden a reviewer who had asked Tolkien for a few 'human touches' in the form of information about how the book came to be written...

...All I remember about the start of The Hobbit is sitting correcting School Certificate papers in the everlasting weariness of that annual task forced on impecunious academics with children. On a blank leaf I scrawled: 'In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit.' I did not and do not know why. I did nothing about it, for a long time, and for some years I got no further than the production of Thror's Map. But it became The Hobbit in the early 1930s, and was eventually published not because of my own children's enthusiasm (though they liked it well enough *)...

*Not any better I think than The Marvellous Land of Snergs, Wyke-Smith, Ernest Benn 1927. Seeing the date, I should say that this was probably an unconscious source-book!for the Hobbits, not of anything else.

Yes, he had 'marvelous' wit!!! :thumbs: ;)

[Periantari Andruil]

I just find it incredible that out of that simple line "In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit.'" came such an exquisite and wonderful story. :thumbs: :thumbs:
Tolkien is Love.

Two quotes that i found in his biography that struck me so much...(and keeps echoing in my brain ;) )

After writing LotR and his thoughts about it:

"It is written in my life-blood, such as that is, thick or thin; and I can no other." ~ "The New Hobbit", JRR Tolkien, A Biography


"I am dreading this publication," he told his friend Father Robert Murray, "for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." ~ "A Big Risk", JRR Tolkien, A Biography

Tolkien being nervous about one of the greatest works of literature and of fantasy is ... just so wonderfully human to read about.

We need a Tolkien smiley icon thing. I woudl so put it now. :thumbs:
:thumbs: :tolkien: !

[Cassandria]

Oh how I loved those quotes too Peri An, how it showed his modesty and humble attitude about his work. I can imagine the adreniline flow he must have felt from the very first review to the very last that met his ears in life. I have often wondered if he truly understood the magnitude of what he had created and how it would effect people's lives long after he was gone. Yet within it all and especially in the very beginning he actually received some bad reviews. How they must have crushed him. Thankfully, he did not let it effect his completion of the works. Still, it must have been devastating. I can remember reading a couple of times in his letters, that he was exhausted with it all and wanted to put it to rest (meaning finish the book and publish it). However, there were a few comments also about his longing to spend more time on it. He loved it, there is no doubt and it truly shows with each page we read. :thumbs:

[Periantari Andruil]

very nicely said, Cassie! Indeed you perfectly said why i love these quotes so much! lol

Next passage: About journeying, allegory, and just... very telling of what Tolkien thought about travelling and such...


Men do go, and have in history gone on journeys and quests, without any intention of acting out allegories of life. It is not true of the past or the present to say that ‘only the rich or those on vacation can take journeys’. Most men make some journeys. Whether long or short, with an errand or simply to go ‘there and back again’, is not of primary importance. As I tried to express it in Bilbo’s Walking Song, even an afternoon-to-evening walk may have important effects. When Sam had got no further than the Woody End he had already had an ‘eye-opener’. For if there is anything in a journey of any length, for me it is this: a deliverance from the plantlike state of helpless passive sufferer, an exercise however small of will, and mobility – and of curiosity, without which a rational mind becomes stultified.

~The Letters of JRR Tolkien: Letter #183, dated 1956

Very interesting what he thought of journey-ing... makes me feel like i want to be swept off my feet on my adventure too. =)


(2300rd post!!! Window on the West! yay! ;) New Avatar too ;) I love this chapter.
:p)

[Periantari Andruil]

I'm not sure if i've posted and really went hyper with this quote before but i'm requoting it and just...
dwelling in its power, in its beauty and the pure truth of it all (i almost typed "true-ness" in my haste and in my unbelievable love ;) ) :naughty:


"Frodo undertook his quest out of love...His real contract was only to do what he could, to try to find a way, and to go as far on the road as his strength of mind and body allowed. He did that. I do not myself see that the breaking of his mind and will under demonic pressure after torment was any more a moral failure than the breaking of his body would have been--say, by being strangled by Gollum or crushed by falling rock." ~Letter 246, Letters of JRR Tolkien.

Need I say anything in analysis? (wait, let me just get hyper with it for a moment. :hyper: :hyper: :hyper: )
ok...

Now, many people think that "Frodo failed". He doesn't. His sacrificial nature from the beginning of the Quest is already something to admire, and for him to take that evil Ring that no one can resist is twice as praise-worthy. NO ONE could've resisted the evil of the Ring. ONLY Frodo. And he "undertook his quest out of love of the Shire and his fellow countryman to "save the Shire"... but unfortunately not for him.

Tolkien made a great point in that Frodo's real redemption came at Emyn Muil where he did not slay Gollum. That ALSO is why he did not fail. He took into consideration what Gandalf had said one "Spring day seemingly of another age" and showed pity to the poor wretched creature and that by itself is ...a very powerful inaction.

Frodo is just the Love.

And enough of deepness--i'm just going to continue reading my favorite Letter 246 now. :p

:frodo: :loveyou: :frodo: :loveyou:

:frodo:

[Cassandria]

Peri An, you've touched on a subject that has made the most profound impact on me through all of Tolkien's writings. It was this very topic that so broke my heart after I read the books for the first time. However, I did not think of it as the 'failure of Frodo', but the 'tragedy of Frodo'. mecry And though it has been posted before, I'd like to elaborate on a couple of quotes from that letter, number 246. :rose:
Tolkien said...
‘perceive the complexity’…
I think that is where many people who believe Frodo failed goes wrong. They do not contemplate the complexity of it all...the power of the ring, the circumstances of which Frodo resided at the time. Hollywood has made heroism seem too easy in too many movies, muddling our minds into believing in unrealistic scenarios.

Here Tolkien elaborates on the situation...
At the last moment the pressure of the Ring would reach its maximum – impossible, I should have said, for any one to resist, certainly after long possession, months of increasing torment, and when starved and exhausted.
And here he give his feelings about it...
…I do not myself see that the breaking of his mind and will under demonic pressure after torment was any more a moral failure than the breaking of his body would have been – say, by being strangled by Gollum, or crushed by a falling rock.

Alas mecry he wrote the assumption of failure into Frodo's own thoughts...
...he thought that he had given his life in sacrifice: he expected to die very soon. But he did not, and one can observe the disquiet growing in him. Arwen was the first to observe the signs, and gave him her jewel for comfort, and thought of a way of healing him...
…it was not only nightmare memories of past horrors that afflicted him, but also unreasoning self-reproach: he saw himself and all that he done as a broken failure. 'Though I may come to the Shire, it will not seem the same, for I shall not be the same.' That was actually a temptation out of the Dark, a last flicker of pride: desire to have returned as a 'hero', not content with being a mere instrument of good. And it was mixed with another temptation, blacker and yet (in a sense) more merited, for however that may be explained, he had not in fact cast away the Ring by a voluntary act: he was tempted to regret its destruction, and still to desire it. 'It is gone for ever, and now all is dark and empty', he said as he wakened from his sickness in 1420.

When I read the books the first time, it hit me to the core of my heart that this terrible ending for this sweet, innocent little creature was such a realistic occurrence in the real world. At about that time in my life I was seeing people return from Viet Nam. As Gandalf said...
'Alas! there are some wounds that cannot be wholly cured' :rose:

[hurin]

where does one begin in describing or even in discussing his works you have to think of all the variables leading up to the first publication(silmarilion,1930) i read a short quote he made and in it he said that he truly began thinking of the stories as a boy his first writting started in about 1914 the start of the sil the thoughts of the hobbit and that whole trilogy came in to his head interresting fact he had wanted to publish the the hobbit trilogy at the same time as the silmrilion 1930 but was talked at of it by his publication agent.( thank goodness!!) shotly after starting he was called to duty during ww1 now origianaly it was believed that he stoped all writting then we find out from his sons writtings that he was working on things then he did stop for a while when after the war he became a proffesor at i believe leeds univ. after a while he started teaching at not one univ.but two that being oxford univ.he was teaching anglo-saxon. now haveing said all these things this is what draws me more and more each day to grow and love his works first off i have no problem telling you all that i get tears of joy and sadness in my eyes when his words this was a man who had a great love affair with his wife much like the one that hitchcock had with his christopher is quoted as telling us that she would re-write his works in pen after he wrote them there is even mention of them setting a gynasium at oxford him quoting her writting he bases his whole stories off of old enghlish lore facts: the names of the 13 dwarves were taken from a viking manuscript based on real men.gandalf was origianaly going to be the leader of the dwarves( again thank goodness)once he started the stories back up again after the war his mind was constantly thinking of his stories he would write them in individual note books but was always making changes and amendmens when his son whent back to begin makeing his revisions he found peices of scrape paper just shoved into some making very diffecult and sometimes impossible to know what to do he was a man who hated upper enghlish people and lifestyle as well as modern technology his ability to to take the most of simpliest of things that are taken for granted in every day life and create the most fanstastic thing to me voluemes about him his works are mixed with all things in everyday life love, pain,joy, happiness,laughter. i began reading his works when i was but a junior in highschool 1985 (ouchy!!) lol now 16yrs im still reading i recently began reading the history of middle earth vol. im like a kid in a candy store its like being back in school and walking into that library and picking up the hobbit all over again now i want more than anything to find some one to teachme the sindarian lang. i was told there are folks on this forum that could help me out i think what has drawn me to his beloved works still after over 16yrs of reading is that while im reading i can close my eyes visulize eveything the great halls of moria and kaza-dume riveidill(sorry for the spelling) hobbittown the fall of gondolien etc.for me to sum all things up i cant these words i can only say "elen sila lummena omentillmo" a star shines on the hour of are meeting"

[Cassandria]

I am such a romantic at heart and just had to post this passage. :rose: This has got to be the most powerful 'love at first sight' experience I have ever read! Oh how this man has a way with words!

It is told in the Lay of Leithian that Beren came stumbling into Doriath grey and bowed as with many years of woe, so great had been the torment of the road. But wandering in the summer in the woods of Neldoreth he came upon Lúthien, daughter of Thingol and Melian, at a time of evening under moonrise, as she danced upon the unfading grass in the glades beside Esgalduin. Then all memory of his pain departed from him, and he fell into an enchantment; for Lúthien was the most beautiful of all the Children of Ilúvatar. Blue was her raiment as the unclouded heaven, but her eyes were grey as the starlit evening; her mantle was sewn with golden flowers, but her hair was dark as the shadows of twilight. As the light upon the leaves of trees, as the voice of clear waters, as the stars above the mists of the world, such was her glory and her loveliness; and in her face was a shining light.
But she vanished from his sight; and he became dumb, as one that is bound under a spell, and he strayed long in the woods, wild and wary as a beast, seeking for her. In his heart he called her Tinúviel, that signifies Nightingale, daughter of twilight, in the Grey-elven tongue, for he knew no other name for her. And he saw her afar as leaves in the winds of autumn, and in winter as a star upon a hill, but a chain was upon his limbs.
There came a time near dawn on the eve of spring, and Lúthien danced upon a green hill; and suddenly she began to sing. Keen, heart-piercing was her song as the song of the lark that rises from the gates of night and pours its voice among the dying stars, seeing the sun behind the walls of the world; and the song of Lúthien released the behind the walls of the world; and the song of Lúthien released the bonds of winter, and the frozen waters spoke, and flowers sprang from the cold earth where her feet had passed.
Then the spell of silence fell from Beren, and he called to her, crying Tinúviel; and the woods echoed the name. Then she halted in wonder, and fled no more, and Beren came to her. But as she looked on him, doom fell upon her, and she loved him; yet she slipped from his arms and vanished from his sight even as the day was breaking. Then Beren lay upon the ground in a swoon, as one slain at once by bliss and grief; and he fell into a sleep as it were into an abyss of shadow, and waking he was cold as stone, and his heart barren and forsaken. And wandering in mind he groped as one that is stricken with sudden blindness, and seeks with hands to grasp the vanished light. Thus he began the payment of anguish for the fate that was laid on him; and in his fate Lúthien was caught, and being immortal she shared in his mortality, and being free received his chain; and her anguish was greater than any other of the Eldalië has known.

Now I feel like I am in a 'swoon'! *sigh*

:rose: How does it make you feel? :rose:

[Cassandria]

In rememberance of our dear Professor on his birthday, here is a passage from one of his letters where he writes about a little gift he received...

Letter #42 To Michael Tolkien
12 January 1941 20 Northmoor Road, Oxford
My dearest Mick,
It seems a long time since I wrote: and it has been a rather dreary and busy time, with a foul east wind blowing steadily, day after day, and the weather varying from bone-piercing cold to grey damp chill..... I have had one amusement lately: Dr Havard took me and the Lewis brothers out to a pub at Appleton on a snowy skiddy night last Tuesday. J.B. had given me a little pot of snuff as a birthday present. So I brought it out of my pocket and read out the ancient label: 'AS SUPPLIED to THEIR MAJESTIES the KINGS of HANOVER & BELGIUM etc. the DUKE of CUMBERLAND and the DUCHESS of KENT'. 'Will any one have any?' I said. Many homy hands of yokels were thrust out. And several caplifting explosions followed! You had better not tell J.B. what I did with (a small portion) of the precious Fribourg and Treyer stuff. lol

[Periantari Andruil]

lol Tolkien has such humor doesn't he? Also love the fact that "Letters" has letters for his kids as well. =)


“Frodo is not intended to be another Bilbo. Though his opening style is not wholly un-kin. But he is rather a study of a hobbit broken by a burden of fear and horror—- broken down, and in the end made into something quite different. None of the hobbits come out of it in pure Shire-fashion. They wouldn’t. But you have got Samwise Gamgee."
~Letter 151 to Hugh Brogan, Sept 1954
...

Interesting that Tolkien would that description of Frodo "broken down" at the end of the Quest. :( I'm just glad that he was granted passage into the West to heal.... <3Frodo<3 :frodo:
And he didn't elaborate on that point of the hobbits coming out of it in "pure Shire-fashion" but then saying "but then you have Sam Gamgee"...i wonder what he meant by that... Did he feel that Sam was able to have a "happily ever after type" ending and therefore that's the biggest contrast from Frodo's fate? Or maybe something else?

X-posted on my LJ:
http://periantari.livejournal.com/146788.html

[Cassandria]

And he didn't elaborate on that point of the hobbits coming out of it in "pure Shire-fashion" but then saying "but then you have Sam Gamgee"...i wonder what he meant by that... Did he feel that Sam was able to have a "happily ever after type" ending and therefore that's the biggest contrast from Frodo's fate? Or maybe something else?
I think he did see that "happily ever after type" ending, Peri An. I stumbled upon this letter where he said...
The book will prob. end up with Sam. Frodo will naturally become too ennobled and rarefied by the achievement of the great Quest, and will pass West with all the great figures; but S. will settle down to the Shire and gardens and inns.

There was something in the innocence of Sam that could never be broken, not even in the bowels of Mordor. He was a simpleton or as Tolkien described in one letter, when he considered changing his name, "...to bring out the comicness, peasantry, and if you will the Englishry of this jewel among the hobbits."

And then there was his love that seemed to keep him innocent...Tolkien said, "I think the simple 'rustic' love of Sam and his Rosie (nowhere elaborated) is absolutely essential to the study of his (the chief hero's) character, and to the theme of the relation of ordinary life (breathing, eating, working, begetting) and quests, sacrifice, causes, and the 'longing for Elves', and sheer beauty."

:loveyou: :sam: :rose:

[Periantari Andruil]

I think he did see that "happily ever after type" ending, Peri An. I stumbled upon this letter where he said...


There was something in the innocence of Sam that could never be broken, not even in the bowels of Mordor. He was a simpleton or as Tolkien described in one letter, when he considered changing his name, "...to bring out the comicness, peasantry, and if you will the Englishry of this jewel among the hobbits."

And then there was his love that seemed to keep him innocent...Tolkien said, "I think the simple 'rustic' love of Sam and his Rosie (nowhere elaborated) is absolutely essential to the study of his (the chief hero's) character, and to the theme of the relation of ordinary life (breathing, eating, working, begetting) and quests, sacrifice, causes, and the 'longing for Elves', and sheer beauty."

:loveyou: :sam: :rose:

Beautiful quotes you chose to tell about Sam in Tolkien's own words, Cassie! :rose: I think i quoted that passage too in my LJ-- glad to see it here. I think Tolkien really meant for Sam to be the "there and back again character" and as you quoted, Frodo has been ennobled, perhaps spiritually have grown away from the Shire and therefore could not settle down in the SHire as Sam and Merry & Pippin had done.

Awesome quoting, dear! :thumbs:

[Periantari Andruil]

and love so many of the letters and reactions there once was to a lot of it. Cassie-- you pick THE best quotes and passages.
:grouphug: :cuddles:

[Cassandria]

:blush: Goshly, thanks Peri An! You have some awesome inputs too!! :cuddles:

:( I wish I had more time in here.

:) Maybe some of the other members would like to share as well. ;) Does anyone else have an interesting passage you would like to reflect on? :stomper:

[Lady Galadriel]

I am such a romantic at heart and just had to post this passage. :rose: This has got to be the most powerful 'love at first sight' experience I have ever read! Oh how this man has a way with words!



Now I feel like I am in a 'swoon'! *sigh*

:rose: How does it make you feel? :rose:

Oh Cass, that was so beautiful. I had forgotten how beautiful and tragic that tale was.