What If... Balrog captures Fellowship and takes The Ring

[Finrod Felagund]

Does Balrog try to overthrow Sauron or team up?

[Catz]

given Tolkiens world.....i doubt it....
the defining trait of evil seems to be not to work together unless one individual/group is dominating and subduing the other(s)...and given that the Moria balrog was a pretty powerful Maia in its own right, i think there'd have just been one heck of a barney....
:catz:

[Sindarin]

I don't think the Balrog would know what to do with it. :flamer:

[Sindarin]

In any case, the ring would be lost in Moria and the forces of Sauron would've probably found it.

[TheRingBearer]

He'd probably have tried to eat it lol

[Finrod Felagund]

But with the Ring's power to dominate and the Balrog's power, could he have overthrown Sauron.
How about this scenario:
1. Balrog throws Gandalf off bridge
2. Gets ring
3. Balrog uses ring to pull all the baddies to him
4. Assaults Mordor
5. Beats Sauron's Army
6. Squares off with the Eye
What happens next?

[Princess Greenleaf]

Yipes...if you recall, the Balrog was a creation of Morgoth, so I think he's smart enough not to overthrow Sauron.

that's a good storyline though!

[Sindarin]

A very interesting storyline. :flamer: :battle:

[Elf angel]

Originally posted by Longshot
But with the Ring's power to dominate and the Balrog's power, could he have overthrown Sauron.
How about this scenario:
1. Balrog throws Gandalf off bridge
2. Gets ring
3. Balrog uses ring to pull all the baddies to him
4. Assaults Mordor
5. Beats Sauron's Army
6. Squares off with the Eye
What happens next?

Why don't you go to Fanfic & post your version of the story. That would be fun. I want to read it.:grin:

[Bonos-Girl]

i think that is probably quite accurate althouh most of the evil the ring does turns into good so.....

[Mirkgirl]

Originally posted by Princess Greenleaf
Yipes...if you recall, the Balrog was a creation of Morgoth, so I think he's smart enough not to overthrow Sauron.

Balrog is a creation of Morgoth? This wasn't in my copy.

And if you mean their character, so was Sauron.

Smart enough? They are more or less the same - Maiar. Why should the Black Lord be Sauron, not one of the Balrogs?

I cannot guess what the Balrog would do with the Ring, it depends how aware was he what the One is.

[Tar-Ancalimë]

he seems pretty darn dumb... ESPECIALLY in the movie.
I mean, the bridge falls, right? so what does he do? take another step onto it... honestly

[Catz]

no actually he doesnt....its his step onto the bridge that breaks it.....take a careful look ;) lol
:catz:

[Tar-Ancalimë]

right but after that i mean, he takes another step... or... maybe not? i thought he did.
Maybe it's been too long since i watched that movie. Last time was tuesday! lol

[A! Elbereth]

When I think of that all I can see is, "hmmmmm pwetty wing? Does not taste good! Does not break! Do not want!" *Balrog throws it in the gap under Khazad-DuM* :elfeek:

[Catz]

yeah...he steps on...Gandalf does the "you cannot pass" and he then takes another step and the bridge breaks...but not until he takes that step....
and i think youre selling Balrogs short there A!E...they were after all very powerful beings.....being Maia made them equal with Sauron, tho perhaps a little less powerful, still a force to be reckoned with...
:catz:

[A! Elbereth]

Aw! It was only a joke! Of course I wasn't convinced of what I said... I was just implying that was the first thing that popped into my head when i read the topic... after all, I am crazy lol ;)

[Catz]

yes dear....we know lol lol ;) :naughty:
just kidding A!E.....i know you were joking....but those poor Balrogs just dont get no respect!!!!:rolleyes: ;) lol
:catz:

[Tar-Ancalimë]

Originally posted by A! Elbereth
"hmmmmm pwetty wing? Does not taste good! Does not break! Do not want!" *Balrog throws it in the gap under Khazad-DuM*

And the ring is lost for another 2 1/2 thousand years... very nice.

[Pil]

I agree with :catz:....the balrogs DO need their respect....i mean.....it was the only thing that actually made legolas wet himself on the journey....! :elfeek: :loveyou:....FOCUS PIL! FOCUS! lol

I think the balrog would have taken the ring and overthrown sauron....either that or it would have used it to make some lovely dents in Moria. roflmao But i do not think that sauron's army would have fought the balrog....they most likely would have joined with him. Evil people are fickle that way. :evil:

[Ringwraith]

Originally posted by TheRingBearer
He'd probably have tried to eat it lol

I thought the same.

But I also consider the possibility that The Ring would have fallen all the way down to the darkest corners of Moria and would have once again become lost and forgotten.

[Lady Melody]

I don't think Balrogs want to conquer the Middle-Earth... it's not THAT smart enough.

[Tar-Ancalimë]

exactly what i said :)

[Algamesh]

Being a sentient creature of Evil, I feel that the Balrog would have known exactly what the Ring was about. We have recently debated what powers the Ring could lend (if any) and I think until that score is settled, it would be hard to tell exactly how that scenario would play out.

The Balrog was a Maiar, same as Sauron. Sauron just proved to be Morgoth's favorite due to his lust for corruption and wickedness that seemed to surpass that of the others. In my opinion, the Balrog vs. Sauron would be a fairly even match ... without considering the Ring. But once again ... that's really an "uninformed" opinion because I really don't know if Sauron's mastery of sorcery is shared by the Balrog in some way ...

Lots of IFs ... ;)

[Catz]

exactly Algy....at the very least the Balrog would have given Sauron a run for his money....just becasue something looks like a beast does not mean it isnt intelligent...
:catz:

[Pil]

Originally posted by Catz
just becasue something looks like a beast does not mean it isnt intelligent...:catz:

I agree...i think the intelligence of the balrog is played down in the film and is highly under-rated. :(

[Tar-Ancalimë]

OK. So what it so very intelligent in the novel?
:thinks:
NO!

[Catz]

how can you tell that???
i dont think it appeared for long enough to make an assesment of its intelligence
its smart enough to pull Gandalf off the bridge even as its falling itself....thats not the reaction of an animal...you have to remember that regardless of the shape it wears, its still a Maia...that makes it the same race as Sauron, and as Gandalf and Saruman....are you saying that theyre dumb??
just because it didnt spend twenty minutes talking about what it was about to do doesnt make it stupid....and in the book its made quite clear that Gandalf weakens the bridge so that it gives way when the Balrog walks out onto it....thats something any creature, intelligent or not could fall for....would YOU imagine that hed take the risk of falling himself???
:catz:

[TheRingBearer]

If it had fallen back into darkness, who could have possibly found after that?

[Catz]

i dont understand what you mean RB.....if you mean the ring, i dont think the balrog was after it at first, it was merely reacting to Gandalf as a Maia from the other side, once it had dealt with him, assuming it beat him, then it may have discovered the ring, had it found it then im pretty sure it would have recognised what it was, for a start balrogs are fire so if it touched it and it didnt melt then it would know it was something unusual, and the ring itself could well have influenced it too......its just supposition after all....
:catz:

[Lady Melody]

How about the possibility that the Balrog was actually trying to save his @$$ when he was flicking that whip, but got poor Gandalf instead?

[Catz]

why??? a fall like that wouldnt kill a balrog form......
:catz:

[Tar-Ancalimë]

I don't understand why you don't think that whip thing was a natural reaction.
It seems to me perfectly reasonable to assume that it's mere reflex.

[Catz]

and it seems to me to be perfectly reasonable that a Maia is intelligent....so our opinions differ.......
it just strikes me as a pretty damn lucky "reflex"....especially when a fall wouldnt kill a balrog.....my feeling is, that the Balrog was outsmarted because it didnt anticipate that Gandalf would take the risk of falling himself, so in a last ditch attempt as it fell it pulled him down with it.....why is that so hard to swallow???
:catz:

[Tary]

I just learned alotroflmao

[TheRingBearer]

Yeah sorry Catz, I was talking about the ring earlier.

[Tar-Ancalimë]

OK well since the fall obviously didn't kill gandalf either then your theory that it was a smart last-ditch attempt doesn't really work either. OK, I mean, even if it wasn't reflex (though I still think it was but never mind that for now) it really isn't that intelligent because it didn't realize Gandalf was a match for it even in the depths or heights of Kazahd-dum

[Catz]

why? again that doesnt hold water....if the balrog wished to kill Gandalf, which it did...it could hardly do so if he was on the bridge and it was at the bottom of a very deep hole, now could it??? so it pulled him in with it...the fall is incidental really, the balrog didnt expect the fall to kill Gandalf...it just wanted him in the same place as itself so that it could kill him....and it almost did too...and it DID kill his body.....he was "brought back"
but why do you have this idea that it isnt intelligent?? its the same race as Gandalf....just in a different form....a maia...a demi god
:catz:

[Tar-Ancalimë]

i thought gandalf died after the endless stair and after the fight on the top of the mountain where the belrog was defeated which means it didn't kill gandalf by making him fall off the bridge.
And not all the maia have to be intelligent. just because the concrete examples we have are intelligent doesn't mean the ones we don't really know have to also be smart.
RE the same race thing--not all races are all intelligent or stupid! there are some pretty darn stuppid elves as well as smart ones!

[Ancalimon]

read this:


http://members.cts.com/king/e/erikt/tolkien/what_if.htm

[Tar-Ancalimë]

thanks!!!
what did I say?
Gandalf defeated the Balrog. And so... yeah you get the point I'm sure.

[Catz]

and???
ok some points....
1.i never said that Gandalf didnt beat the Balrog....if you look up at my posts youll see that.....
2.i also never said that the Balrog could neccessarily control the ring either, i just stated an opinion that it might try...probably influenced by the ring itself, to bring itself back to Saurons attention.....after all this thread is about "what if...the balrog captures the fellowship and takes the ring" isnt it?
3. i never said that the fall would kill Gandalf...in fact i said at least twice that it wouldnt
4. and OK so the balrog didnt actually kill Gs body....just fought him to the stage where once he staggered out of the mines he died.....thats grasping at straws a bit isnt it?
5. i agree that Tolkien intended the Balrog to be beaten.....with regards to intelligence this proves nothing
6.my problem with what youre saying is merely this:
i really dont think a stupid demi god is a good idea...i dont think at any stage there was any demonstration that the Balrog was not intelligent and i think that stating that it was, simply because it got beat in a fight is kind of short sighted......
:catz:

[Fatty]

Hmmm well I reckon you have to look at the context. The Balrog in Moria was clearly aware of Sauron's existance and vice-versa.

I think that, although the Balrog was not directly under Saurons control, it clearly showed some deferrence to him and avoided conflict with his troops. ALlowing them to stay in Moria.

I reckon the Balrog without thewring would not have been a match for Sauron. Sauron had great power, certianly more than most of the other Maia. Since his investment, and so attachment to Middle-earth was so strong. No doubt following his masters lead. Now given the Balrogs path had also tied it to its hideous form, but I don't think it would have been on anyway equal terms with Sauron. SInce he had been the pupil of Morgoth for millenia and strong himself before that.

With the ring the Balrog would have been a force to reckon with. But I think it would have been hard pressed to keep the ring had Sauron come to claim it, or it gone to face him. Tolkien himself says that only Gandalf could possibly have survived a direct contest of wills over the control of the ring.

Remember that the ring is part of Sauron, if you want to challenge him for posession of it then you need a will at least as powerful or greater than his own.

Also another advantage Sauron had was that he had been dominating the minds of others for countless centuries, bitth great and small. He knew every trick in the book. Even with a mighty will like Denethor he managed to trick him.

As for the Balrogs being stupid, I cannot say I agree with that. I tknew enough to percieve Gandalf for what he was and break his holding spell. As catz says to all intent and purposes it also destroyed Gandalf in the it's own ruin.

The proposition of the question makes the same mistake those who wanted to use the ring to defeat Sauron made. It cannot be used like a powerup or and extra powerful weapon. It is in substance the essence of Sauron, bound to his will and fate. imho :-)

[Catz]

The proposition of the question makes the same mistake those who wanted to use the ring to defeat Sauron made. It cannot be used like a powerup or and extra powerful weapon. It is in substance the essence of Sauron, bound to his will and fate. imho :-)

exactly....well put Fatty......and thats why i think that the ring itself would push the Balrog to challange Sauron...the ring does what it has to to get back to "the hand of its master" and i agree, Sauron would defeat the Balrog: and thus get back the ring...
the ring entices with visions of power, but it cant deliver that power to anyone but Sauron
:catz:

[Tar-Ancalimë]

I think that if the Balrog is smart and was once under the will of Morgoth it wouldn't push to challenge Sauron. Maybe after 500 years under the power of the ring but certainly not right away certainly not in Frodo lifetime. And if it isn't (to which I still hold just because I can't see my way to thinking such a powerful magical beast could also be endowed with great intelligence) then it just wouldn't care right?


Originally posted by Catz
my problem with what youre saying is merely this:
i really dont think a stupid demi god is a good idea...i dont think at any stage there was any demonstration that the Balrog was not intelligent and i think that stating that it was, simply because it got beat in a fight is kind of short sighted......

a stupid demi god isn't my idea... it's just that with every race (including the Maia) there are some stupid ones and some intelligent ones... my point in this is that your argument for its intelligence that it's a demi god I disagree with... I'm not saying this arguement proves it is intelligent.

Even granted the first part of your second statement, there certainly wasn't any demonstration that it was intellligent and so if we grant yours, mine follows too.

And anyway I think that the Balrog's purpose in ME is not to be a sentient being... oh, hold up, this is what if... never mind.

[Catz]

(to which I still hold just because I can't see my way to thinking such a powerful magical beast could also be endowed with great intelligence)

so Sauron, Galadriel, Gandalf, Fangorn....in fact every powerful being in ME is also stupid?????
or is it just the magic that makes em dumb?????
whatever......youve not given me any reason to change my mind on this...and to my mind there WAS evidence of intelligence on its part....what would you call intelligence??? what possible behaviour could the poor creature exhibit that it didnt other than reciting Elvish poetry, or maybe it could have challenged Gandalf to a chess match....that would have beeen gripping:rolleyes:
i never said that the balrog was the maia version of Stephen Hawking...just that it wasnt a dumb animal, and that it followed a perfectly logical set of steps to its goal which was to eliminate another maia from the other side to wit, Gandalf.
but im not going to convince you as youve already made up your mind and you certainly havent changed mine so i dont think theres any more to say on the matter really....
:catz:

[Algamesh]

Uh ... how can any of Iluvatar's divine children be stupid? The Maia were the servants of the Valar and I don't see the Maia being created by an all-knowing deity as unintelligent. Remember - Maia aren't born .. they are created for a purpose. Eru has no need to create stupidity.

I don't even see the need for a debate over whether the Balrog was intelligent. He was ... ;)

[Tar-Ancalimë]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH HH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OK fine! No one agrees with me!!!!
Fine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! verymad


The Balrogs maybe were created for a different purpose than the one which they fulfilled!!!!!!!!!! They weren't created by Morgoth you know!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Remember, he corrupted them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They were demons of terror!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They weren't supposed to be smart they were supposed to terrify the Eldar!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And they did!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

verymad verymad verymad verymad verymad verymad

[Algamesh]

The Balrogs were created by Iluvavtar ... not Morgoth ... maybe that's where your line of thinking has erred. Morgoth did not pervert their minds either ... they choose their paths.

[Tar-Ancalimë]

Originally posted by Tar-Ancalimë
They weren't created by Morgoth you know!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What?????????? I SAID they WEREN'T created by Morgoth!!!!!!!!!!!!! ARGH!!!!!!!!!!!! And he did pervert their minds!!!!!!!!!!!! The Silmarillion says so:

...and others he [Morgoth] corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful amoung these spirits were the... Balrogs


My line of thinking has NOT ERRED!!!!!!! I think 'tis possible that yours HAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Algamesh]

Here are a few items that I think support the issue that the Balrogs were, at the least, moderately intelligent:

From Foster's Book: The Complete Guide to MiddleEarth:

"Maiar who rebelled with Melkor, after Sauron the mightiest and most terrible of his servants."

From Unfinished Tales (describing the Lord of the Balrogs):

"Gothmog - Lord of Balrogs, high-captain of Angband, slayer of Feanor, Fingon, and Ecthelion."

From Silmarillion:

"And in Utumno he gathered his demons about him, those spirits who first adhered to him in the days of his splendour, and became most like him in corruption ... Balrogs they were named."

I think that the references to GothMog being a "High Commander" and the comparision of Balrogs being most like Melkor (of all the Maia) are strong evidence to show the Balrog's were shrewd in battle, leadership, and desire.

It was a curse of the Balrogs' that they were commited to their fiery forms. I think this physical ailment probably prevented them from being able to live in a sophisticated enviroment. I'm sure that if the Balrogs could have changed form to somthing a bit less threatening to the enviroment, they probably would have engaged in more social gatherings ;)

[Tar-Ancalimë]

I'm sure I'm not so sure!!!!!!!!!!
Maiar who followed alond with Melkor? THat took a lot of intelligence I'm sure!!!!!!!!!!

It doesn't take intelligence to go around killing people left and right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And your third quote doesn't either refute or support your contention!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A think your last paragraph is mere supposition!!!!!!!!!!

And I'm losing my temper so I'm stopping now.

verymad verymad
verymad
verymad
verymad
verymad

[Algamesh]

Yes ... if you cannot debate further without overt emotion .. maybe we should terminate this discussion. You have your theory and the rest of us ... another.

Possibly someday we will find a definitive answer!

[Fatty]

Yes take it easy folks. When you debate on a forum or anywhere youare going to meet people who disagree with you. Debate is all about putting your point across and trying to convince the other person of your point of view, or else agree to differ.

It is not personal. :-) Tar you are proposing a very contentious idea, that Balrogs are not intelligent. You have to expect people to argue strongly against this, as it goes against what is help popularly to be true. That is not to say that you are wong but you have to expect most people to disagree with you.

Fatty

[Tar-Ancalimë]

Sorry!

It's just that it wasn't MOST people it was EVERYBODY but I'm in control now.

Anyway... I'm done with this thread.

[Fatty]

OK cool. :-)

[Tar-Ancalimë]

:notworthy:
:notworthy:
:notworthy:
:notworthy:

[Bonos-Girl]

hahaha roflmao

[Narsil's weilder]

What the hell is a Balrog gonna do with a all powerful ring and domination of Middle Earth? I think perhaps he really didn't care.

[Tar-Ancalimë]

ah... i love you narsils weilder!
(j/k but youre the first to... never mind... and i know that... but never mind... and... yeah.)

[Catz]

much the same thing as Sauron would i guess....why would anyone? why did Frodo try to claim the Ring? he knew that Sauron would crush him like a bug, Ring or no Ring, but he still did it.....
its the Rings influence...and i think it does it so that they WILL challenge Sauron.....99% of the creatures in ME are no threat to the Dark Lord, of the others, they are all tempted by the Ring....and i suspect that having a large part of the life force of Sauron within it would make it betray any other hand, so that theres little risk to Sauron in it doing this
and i dont think anyone said that the Balrog would beat Saruon in a head to head.....my feeling is that the Ring would influence it to try so that it could get back to Sauron ie: Balrog challenges Sauron, Sauron beats Balrog, Sauron takes back Ring.....i dont think the Balrog could beat Sauron
:catz:

[Tar-Ancalimë]

well tolkein falt out states only gandalf or galadriel would be a match for sauron even with the ring.

and thats a good point about frodo, catz, why did he try? he hadn't a hope and all it did was bring sauron's eye and will and nazgul down on him.

anyway going on this yeah the balrog would challenge sauron
(and i still wanna see that chess match: gandalf v. balrog!!! lol roflmao)

[Daisy Gamgee]

IMO the ring claimed Frodo - he was near to Sauron where the ring would be at its greatest power over him, but the hobbits had managed to sneak past Sauron as his attention was elsewhere - the ring maybe knew this and knew that if it didn't exert some power over Frodo, it would be destroyed before Sauron discovered them - therefore by claiming Frodo, it may have been able to lead the ring back to Sauron

[Algamesh]

Great observation Daisey ...

I believe that the Ring was sentient and that claiming Frodo at the end was an act of self-preservation. Only in the chamber where it was crafted did it have the power to fully defeat his Will.

[Narsil's weilder]

Originally posted by Tar-Ancalimë
ah... i love you narsils weilder!
(j/k but youre the first to... never mind... and i know that... but never mind... and... yeah.)

Same to you, seeing that I can't understand the words that are comming through your web band! lol

[Tar-Ancalimë]

oh really? how surprising! (lol)