Fencing and Swordplay

[Elfdaughter]

OK, at the request of Elegost and Laurelin, I (hopefully with the help of IHD) have started this thread to answer any questions you have, etc. Basically, it's the fighter's answer to the Archery threads! :p

[Elegost]

Hmmm I suppose we should start by just trying to post basics for the different kinds of Sword Forms.

[Laurelin]

Anyone here know about Katanas? veryhappy

[Elegost]

Thats what I practice but im thinking of switching.From what ive read online,its one of the toughest forms to get right and without a proper instructor(Which I dont have) its nearly impossible...

[Elfdaughter]

Unfortunately not! IHD might know, though.....

Elegost - I will, but it's currently 5 am.... ;) So I wouldn't expect my post to make any sense..... ;)

[IronHills Dwarf]

I wouldn't even try to approach katana. ;) JMA (Japanese Martial Arts) practitioners tend to me more prickly than a cactus when it comes to forms and such, mostly because they, unlike WMA, have a traceable link with their forms and a continous line of practitioners. There's allot of different forms as well - Kenjutsu, Iaido, Shinkendo, Bujinkan, Kendo etc... So I personally don't want to open that can of worms. lol

But try this:
http://forums.swordforum.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=16

and read the stickies (especially the top one, shows some of the dangers of getting into swords, and the second one which may answer some questions and give you some starting resources).

[Laurelin]

Thanks IHD! ;) I know anything Japanese is very technical and specific to an extreme, but man to I love those swords. lol (and their bows) ;)

[Elegost]

Well I would love to get into Japanese but like you said they tend to be strict.I suppose I could get into One Handed European style.Like Broadswords and such.

Woot good news!I found an instructor in my area and might be getting private lessons! :) :grin:

[IronHills Dwarf]

Excellent! :) May I inquire as to what they offer? (and what they teach from? German style or Italian?)

[Elegost]

Actually its none of those its JMA.He teaches Karate, Bushido(Or Kendo cant remeber which) staff,and Tai Qwan Do(Spelling?).

[IronHills Dwarf]

Ahhh, well best of luck with your studies all the same. :)

[Elfdaughter]

:cuddles: Agreed - sorry we can't help with that!

[Elegost]

Yay.Just got through with me first lesson!

[Elfdaughter]

Ooh! Details, details! :hyper:

[IronHills Dwarf]

As promised I'm going to post a little bit on "functional" in terms of swords and the dangers of wallhangers. Originally I was going to post a massive article I had sitting around (I never got it up on my site) titled:
"So you want a real Tolkien sword?
A guide to functional weapons of comparable pattern
to those of the Film Trilogy"

This is an excerpt from that article which should answer some of the questions I've seen around here in the past (I haven't posted the full article here because I run into my perennial words per post problem. lol If you've still got questions ask away, this is something of my area, or at least an area that I have no trouble looking up the answers. ;)

"The success of the Lord of the Rings film trilogy as contributed in no small part to the recent upsurge of interest in reproduction weaponry and in particular, swords. The line of licensed movie swords produced by United Cutlery (UC) and a similar line by the Noble Collection (NC) have proved very successful with the Tolkien and weaponry communities. However some have bemoaned several issues regarding both companies’ products. Chief of these complaints is the fact that none of these swords are in fact swords. They are not functional items that could be employed as swords, they look nice and shiny on the wall, but actual swords they are not. There are a few reasons for this; the blades of the swords from both companies are made from 420 J2 stainless steel. Proper swords are made from high carbon steel (of which there are a number of types and grades). For the layman the obvious question is, why is stainless steel not a proper material for a functional blade? To understand the answer it is necessary to outline the properties and functions expected from a sword.

A sword is governed by a number of properties predicated by the nature of the weapon’s shape. A sword has a long blade in relation to it’s handle, this requires a mixture of rigidity and flexibility in said blade. While this may seem redundant it is quite true. A sword blade must be rigid to the point that it is not whippy and while being able to retain a straight profile during a sweeping stroke, it also must be flexible enough to absorb the shock of impacting the object it is striking or being thrust into. But it also must be tempered to make minimize the damage to the shape of the blade on impact. High carbon steel allows swordsmiths to take into account these necessities. Stainless steel on the other hand is quite a rigid material, differing from high carbon steel in two aspects. Stainless steel has a low carbon content (the more carbon the easier the metal rusts), and a minimum of 12% chromium. 420 J2 is classed as a martensitic stainless steel, by this definition it can be tempered to great hardness but will become rather brittle. In short the stainless steel in licensed replica Lord of the Rings swords cannot meet the requirements of the properties outlined above because it will not have the flexibility required. The reader might be expected to ask at this point how come many bladed implements are made from stainless steel such as large kitchen knives? The answer is simple, kitchen knives are not expected to face the rigors of a sword, kitchen knives are for vegetables, not for steel on steel contact or any similar heavy use and a kitchen knife is usually not over 12 inches long. If one attempted to match a kitchen knife against a properly constructed sword the knife would not long survive as a usable instrument. As some owners have found to their chagrin the licensed replicas cannot be used to spare with ‘real’ swords, the outcome is usually a broken movie replica and at worst severe injuries from flying junks of 420 J2."

[Lynx]

Very interesting IHD. That has been one of my drawbacks to purchasing one of the movie replica swords - they don't function as real swords. They do look fantastic though. I have a friend who has the Sting and Anduril replica, and he said they weren't any good except for sitting cool and pretty on his desk, lol.

Now that you've covered the types of steel, what about the actual construction of the replica swords? I read somewhere that replicas are not battle-ready due to the construction - something about the tang not extending to the hilt area, so that the replica is in three pieces, then put together...?.....care to eleborate?

[IronHills Dwarf]

Sure thing. The replicas employ what's known as a rat-tail tang.

http://bladeseller.com/Construction/index.htm

That link should explain most of it. Basically a rat-tail is a very narrow tang with a piece of threaded rod welded onto it. It's very weak usually.

[Cuiel Rilwen]

Wow...this is useful info! Thanks ever so much for sharing! :)

[Lynx]

The Bladeseller site was really helpful and informative IHD, thanks! I'm saving it to my favourites on my comp.:)

[IronHills Dwarf]

You guys also might find this useful...
http://ejmas.com/jwma/articles/2000/jwmaart_hellqvist_1100.htm

An introduction to Oakshott, which is pretty much essential to understanding the medieval sword.

[Cuiel Rilwen]

You have the most wonderful link-collection dear dwarf! :) Very useful indeed!

[Lynx]

Yes, Oakeshott - what a scholar! Sad that he passed away just a couple of years ago. I have a slew of his books on my Amazon wishlist.:)
Thanks for the cool links IHD!

[Mithwen]

I have a replica of Eowyn's sword. Maybe when I get older I can get a better sword at one of the Rennasainse fairs I go to. If I do that I might be ranking my dad in the amount of swords owned. He has about four. I have two. One is the replica of Eowyn's sword and the other is sort of like a scimitar. It was made in India. It isn't very good, the blade flops a little and the balance is off.

[IronHills Dwarf]

Just make sure you're at a good stand at your faire. Some the makers that tend to hang out at the ren faires don't always have quality stuff. It's usually better to buy online so you're not so tempted with the impluse purchase. ;)

Actually I could, if anybody wants, post a bit on some of the entry level makers, I've had experience with a few of them now.

[Cuiel Rilwen]

Ofcourse we want that...go ahead and feed us! :grin:

[Elfdaughter]

Yeah, that's a good point, IHD. (*cough* sorry...bad pun. ;) )

I have to say, I currently have my eye on this beauty of a rapier:
http://www.fatchett.com/fiocchi/photos/rapier_three_quarter_swept_05.jpg

[IronHills Dwarf]

Link isn't working for me ED. :(

As you wish Cuiel (anybody catch the PB ref there? lol)

Basically there are 4 entry level makers.

Hanwei

CAS Iberia (who also market Hanwei just to confuse you)

Windlass Steelcrafts/Museum Replicas

Generation 2 (Gen 2)


I own a Hanwei and a Windlass.

Hanwei
Pros: Cheap, good construction (peened pommels), sturdy feel, decent blade and fittings, decent weight
Cons: Fairly soft blades, can be QC problems, not always best dimensions and geometry, limited models
Overall: Great starter swords. I like mine and they make good project blades, mine is pretty much unrecognizable from when I got it. These blades are made via stock removal in China.

CAS Iberia
Pros: Cheap
Cons: Weak tangs, ugly design, poor geometry, spotty QC, overly heavy
Overall: Save your money. Don't be fooled by price, you get what you pay for. I've never owned one and never plan on it. Made in the Phillipines, stock removal.

Windlass
Pros: Wide selction of models, good heat treat on the blades, decent construction, cheap
Cons: Whippy blades, can have mediocre fittings, obsession with making the blades have maximum flex despite intended use or geometry
Overall: I like mine, good blade and better than a Hanwei in some ways, but overall a cheaper feel. I'm not a huge fan. Made in India, stock removal.

Gen 2
Pros: good attempt to make some historical swords, good heat treat from all I hear, sturdy construction
Cons: people end up with swords heavier than advertised, over engineered (to beefy)
Overall: I'd like to try one out (hey AoV want to send me a test copy? :grin: lol), but I worry about hearing that people get swords that are heavier than advertised. Made in Phillipines apparently by hand forging. I dislike some of the older models intensly, but the new lucerine sword catches my fancy.

[Elfdaughter]

Yeah, personally I go for Hanwei. Hanwei also do rapiers (my schalger's a Hanwei). The only problem I have with her is that if I've been out fencing in the rain, as soon as I get in I need to take rust off. Hanwei blades do rust very easily, but hey, that's period....:rolleyes:

I think Windlass do rapiers too - Darkwood holds some nice blades as well. Mind you, Darkwood is VERRRY expensive. But VERY nice!

ps...

It's here: http://www.fatchett.com/fiocchi/rapier.htm - if you scroll down to the three-quarter swept hilts,it's the last one along.

http://www.fatchett.com/fiocchi/photos/rapier_three_quarter_swept_05.jpg

[hurin]

suilad mae govannen (hail and well met) ive just a few questions concurning 3 particular blades from the books glamdring orcrist and sting is the any history or stories about them prieor to the hobbit? thank you for your time garo tinnu vaer (have a good eveining)

[Elfdaughter]

Already answered..;) http://www.warofthering.net/forums/vbulletin225/upload/showpost.php?p=591896&postcount=4

[Celebriel_Esgaledhel]

Anyone else here do heavy?

[Gil Galad]

Fencing, its something id like to take up, although im not sure if i have the subtelty

I am very usefull with an axe though

[Beriagôn]

the Axe is a formidable weapon and a everyday-use object.
A axe with a long shaft can deliver a huge and devastating thrust, that even the strongest body-armor can`t withstand.
But the axe is also a "slow" weapon, the big weight makes it hard to controll and swing to hit stationary or moving targets.
Axes of a larger calibre must be used with two hands, so in a battle or another conflict you wil have a protective disadvantage, since you don`t have the protection of a shield or the crossguard of a sword.

I favor the sword, but I also use a throwing-axe.

[Elvenrider]

Throwing axe? I didn't know that was involved in fencing??? That's interesting

[Gil Galad]

haha. its only allowed when the referee isnt looking.

Well let the ploughman plough. The Axe is useful for some work while the sword for others. what type of blade do you use? thursting or slashing?

[Elvenrider]

HA! Legolas line from FOTR!!!

[Gil Galad]

oh yes it is, when i read your post first and then looked at mine i thought you were saying that "its only allowed when the referee isnt looking" was a legolas line.

but anyway fencing etc. what type of blade do you all prefer?

[Beriagôn]

*It`s all about what a man can do, and what a man cant do...*;)

prefer the classic viking swords, medieval longsword and Claymore basicly...
I like many of the Oriental swords, but nothern-european swords appeals more to me...

[Elvenrider]

Oh I don't actually fence or swordfight. I'm just sort of interested. But I thought fencing was with those thin swords. So what are the rules with you fighting with axes and swords?

[Gil Galad]

well in real life there are generally no rules,:fight: but its usual to give quarter(the living are generally worth more then the dead you see). but your right about the fencing swords although there are 3 different size of fencing sword. the thin one is the Epee if im not mistaken. not sure about the technical rules of it though

Its hard to beat the good old Irish Claymore alright :battle:
for a lighter sword i do like the typical old Celtic leaf-shaped blade(kinda like sting)

[Elvenrider]

To give quarter?

[Gil Galad]

Oh sorry, "giving quarter" is not killing someone at your mercy.

[Elvenrider]

Oh.
But how do you fight with like axes and real swords instead of fencing swords?

[Gil Galad]

well its prety much just a well timed swing, and you either incapacitate the enemy or miss and leave yourself open, the timing and judgement of your opponents likely movements are very important. thats with axes and heavy swords

with the roman legionary sword (the gladius?) you basically just hide behind your(and your neighbours, like in a phalanx) shield and poke at anybody you see

fencing swords are real swords there just for a different style of fighting, you see when firearms made armour near useless, the armour was got rid of, this meant that heavy swords were not needed and teh lighter blades were used

I hope this helps

[Elvenrider]

So you have like 50 side teams and fight?

[Gil Galad]

huh? im not sure i get you

Oh i should point out that sparring isnt really an option with the heavy weapons as even with blunt weapons you can do quite a bit of harm to someone.

[Elvenrider]

Right, that's what I couldn't imagine...sparring with axes.

[Gil Galad]

you use a tree or something

[Elvenrider]

Wouldn't you cut down the tree :( with an axe?

[Gil Galad]

well you could(big trees can take a long time to cut down) you would mark a point on the tree and then you hit that. but of course when the tree comes down it makes good fire wood etc

[Elvenrider]

yes..on a better note lol

[Cuiel Rilwen]

What's this about chopping down trees! :nono:

[Gil Galad]

none of them go to wate, oh and i should point out that you have to be very careful when cutting down trees, it is quite a dangerous job

[Beriagôn]

nothing wrong with cutting down trees.....we need to burn something....

[Elvenrider]

most people live in a civilized world...you can use propane...and I assume anyone reading this lives in a civilized world.
But I can understand if you live in remote areas, I live in a rural area...but can stilkl get propane...
But again, theres always dead wood to burn instead...which is usually drier anyways.

[Cuiel Rilwen]

nothing wrong with cutting down trees.....we need to burn something....

I know I know...I was thinking about the Ents I guess! lol

[Gil Galad]

well its usually old trees which are in danger of falling and doing damage you see.

and Elvenrider, i hoestly prefer an open fire to a gas one and then there is ofcourse the fact that burning wood is carbon neutral.

[Elvenrider]

Yes yes, I agree. I would rather have wood than fire.....oops I mean wood than propane lol
Ya, better for the invironment also.