Faith in his old books?

[Elvenrider]

Now I know Tolkien was a religious man and talked with C.S. Lewis about their books and eventually converted him to christianity. And Lewis went on to base his Chronicles of Narnia on God and the devil's war. But does anybody else think that maybe Toliien might have included some of his Faith in his books. Now I know a lot of it is just him thinking it and imagining it, but the title: The Return of the KING?

Maybe I'm just over analyzing it but...I don't know, I wanna know some other comments on this.

[Periantari Andruil]

I think Tolkien originally wanted his last volume of LotR to be entitled "The War of the Ring"--it would've gave away less of the storyline but because the publishers thought that "The REturn of the King" would have been more fitting did TOlkien acquiesce with it...
I'll try to find more reference to it some other time but i think that Tolkien had ideas about his religion probably only indirectly affecting his writing but you can see significance in dates when the Fellowship sets out from Rivendell (on Christmas) and when Sauron was destroyed (on March 25th).
Others may have more say about the religious undertones of LotR but i think the title of "Return of the King" doesnt' have that....
:thumbs:

Welcome Archer! =)

[Elfdaughter]

Personally, I detest it when people try to read into books like this and try to pick up on allegories and 'did he mean this when he said that'....

Tolkien says in his introduction that he did not want or mean for any allegory to be looked for in his book -

"I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history, true or feigned, with its varied applicibility to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse applicibility with allegory; but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author."

He goes on to say:

"An author cannot of course remain wholly unaffected by his experience, but the ways in which a story-germ uses the soil of experience are extremely complex, and attempts to define the process are at best guesses from evidence that is inadequate and ambiguous. It is also false, though naturally attractrive, when the lives of an author and critic have overlapped, to suppose that the movements of thought or the events of times common to both were necessarily themost powerful influences."

Peri is also correct in saying that Tolkien did not want the 'Return of theKing' to be so-called. He did want it to be called 'The War of the Ring.'

[Elvenrider]

Ya, I did not like, when I was watching TTT (I had already seen it though) with my grandma and she kept saying yup! that's good and evil, god and the devil, when saruman showed up and stuff and it was really annoying, though I have to admit it does sometimes make since, but if you try to look into it too much you won't get the full joyness of the books or movies, as when she kept saying that it was hard to enjoy the movie.
So I agree with you ED, oh and I left a PM for you, did you get it?

[Cassandria]

Of course Tolkien's writings were not allegorical, but that does not mean he did not write from the goodness of his soul. Which to me is the purest form of religion. Here is a quote from The Letters of JRR Tolkien…

165 To the Houghton Mifflin Co.
… as I sometimes say to people who ask me 'what is it all about?'
It is not 'about' anything but itself. Certainly it has no allegorical intentions, general, particular, or topical, moral, religious, or political. The only criticism that annoyed me was one that it 'contained no religion' (and 'no Women', but that does not matter, and is not true anyway). It is a monotheistic world of 'natural theology'. The odd fact that there are no churches, temples, or religious rites and ceremonies, is simply part of the historical climate depicted. It will be sufficiently explained, if (as now seems likely) the Silmarillion and other legends of the First and Second Ages are published. I am in any case myself a Christian; but the 'Third Age' was not a Christian world.
Of course Tolkien’s writings reflect his faith! Don’t most writers pour a little bit of the core of their soul into their works? It is one of the things I am most fond of about his stories -the innocence of the good guys, the natural way that morals and faith guide the story; as natural as breathing! But is it 'about' religion...no. Here is a letter where he openly admits to have naturally and ‘unconsciously so at first’ included his religion:

142 To Robert Murray, SJ.
[Father Roben Murray, grandson of Sir James Murray (the founder of the Oxford English Dictionary) and a close friend of the Tolkien family, had read pan of The Lord of the Rings in galley-proofs and typescript, and had, at Tolkien's instigation, sent comments and criticism. He wrote that the book left him with a strong sense of 'a positive compatibility with the order of Grace', and compared the image of Galadriel to that of the Virgin Mary. He doubted whether many critics would be able to make much of the book – 'they will not have a pigeon-hole neatly labelled for it'.]
2 December 1953 76 Sandfield Road, Headington, Oxford
My dear Rob,
It was wonderful to get a long letter from you this morning..... I am sorry if casual words of mine have made you labour to criticize my work. But, to tell you the truth, though praise (or what is not quite the same thing, and better, expressions of pleasure) is pleasant, I have been cheered specially by what you have said, this time and before, because you are more perceptive, especially in some directions, than any one else, and have even revealed to me more clearly some things about my work. I think I know exactly what you mean by the order of Grace; and of course by your references to Our Lady, upon which all my own small perception of beauty both in majesty and simplicity is founded. The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like 'religion', to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism. However that is very clumsily put, and sounds more self-important than I feel. For as a matter of fact, I have consciously planned very little; and should chiefly be grateful for having been brought up (since I was eight) in a Faith that has nourished me and taught me all the little that I know; and that I owe to my mother, who clung to her conversion and died young, largely through the hardships of poverty resulting from it.:)

[Elfdaughter]

I'mafraid I still agree with Archer. The thing is, that Christians see their religion in it - but SO DO WE. The Lord of the Rings is one of THE most pagan books I've ever read! That's what I like about it - everyone can see their own religion reflected in it.

What I detest is people saying that a book like this is a 'christian' book, when EVERY religion can see their own religion reflected in it.

[Cassandria]

That is true ED, you can see many things in this story and it can influence in many ways. But what the question was, did anybody else think that Tolkien included his faith in the books. In his letters he answered yes, originally, but unintentionally. Other people saying it is a christian book is no different than you saying it is a pagan book. As you said, '...everyone can see their own religion reflected in it.' There is no reason to get angy or detest their opinion, just accept that we are all of different colors and flavors and enjoy each other in our differences. ;) :cuddles:

[Elfdaughter]

lol - I know, it just gets on my nerves when people start analysing it - why can't we take it for what it is - an absoloutly amazing story, set in a completly different time to ours, almost a seperate world. It's not the people's opinions I detest, nor their religion, (especially as we believe that all Gods are the One God), it's the fact that they feel the need to look deeply into a book to draw out the references that I detest. I enjoy reading books for their face value - for the story - I don't like it when people delve into it to draw out meanings. It's like the Chronicles of Narnia - I love the book, but it gets on my nerves when people relate Aslan to Christ - I see him as ASLAN, in a made-up world,and a good story. It's the same with Gandalf - him being described as a 'christ-like' figure because he sacrifices himself and comes back from the dead (the fact that many people in pre-christian myths and legends have done this also is often overlooked....:rolleyes: ) gets on my nerves in the same way - he is an Istari, in a land called 'Middle-earth' and his sacrifice came from friendship and thinking he was doing the right thing by battling the Balrog to allow the others to escape and destroy the ring.

So, it's not their opinion I detest - everyone has a right to their own opinion (I, for instance, see the CoN not only as a Christian book, but also as a Pagan book, though there would be many who disagree with that) it's the fact that people feel the need to ascribe a religion to a book - as I said before, and as you quoted, '...everyone can see their own religion reflected in it.'

I'm not angry,and I'm sorry if it came over that way - just stating my own opinion. :cuddles: :grouphug:

And I think that Tolkien tried hard to avoid references etc in LOTR - as he said, he didn't actually intend for any religious overtones at all when he wrote it - and I think he succeded - which is why everyone of all faiths can see their own religion in it.

[Elvenrider]

I totally agree, it just sucks and bleeds the joy out of any book or movie when you analize or try to stamp a label on it. It the imagination that makes it fun, not analyzing it and saying Oops that's a christian book, or buddhist or whatever, it just doesn't seem right.

[Gollum the Great]

Well Tolkien was a religious man...after the death of his father, Tolkien and his family practally lived in the Catholic church, so of course it had a huge inpact on his life and can be seen through his writings. Now tis true that he dispised allegory...infact he and CS Lewis got in quite a few sebates over it... BUT one cant help but notice some Bibical parallels in Tolkien's writings...one can almost find it in any book one reads if one looks for it.
It is still quite possiable that Tolkien did have even more allegory than intended due to his subconcious...meaning he wrote it in with out really thinking about it so to say...

Since this can get into an even deeper conversation...lets let our minds wonder....what peoples/places/events/and situations might be a good example of evidence of Tolkien's spiritual beliefs
Hobbits=the small child like innocence we all should have
Gollum= proving that it is not wise to give out speedy judgment and that good can come from evil things
lets keep this goin...debate even if needed
*I like stuff like this if you didnt notice ;)*

[Elfdaughter]

...one can almost find it in any book one reads if one looks for it.


Exactly. One always applies ones own religion/experiences/attitudes to the books one reads. I'm doing a degree in English Literature, and one of the the essays I had to do first Semester was on 'how we read'. For instance a Christian may see aspects if their religion in one passage of LOTR. A person of a totally different religion may read the same passage and see aspects of their religion reflected in the exact same words that the Christian saw their religion reflected in. That's what Tolkien meant when he wanted LOTR to have 'applicability', rather than be allegory.

It's all about how we read and what influences and experiences the reader brings to the book and the experience of reading.

[Gollum the Great]

Right on! You dont need to be a set religion to see certain things in the book... no matter what religion there is a good side and a bad side...a ying and a yang as some may say... a Writer's tone in his/her writings can be read very clearly...but the mood that the reader gets is her/her personal experience... and Tolkien sure didnt write the book saying "this shall teach Christian morals" no... it has morals in it true, but there is no set "religion" into it... Personaly I'm a very spiritual person...and I can read some spiritual (not meaning religious) things in Tolkien's writings...
Lets look at this...
Frodo's burden...some where in everyone's life there will be a heavy burden to bear... and there will be a fellowship of some kind to help you bear that burden... via friend, lover, councler, who/what ever...the quest we are all on now is Life itself...what are we to do with the life we were given? (what was Frodo to do with the ring he was given?) Use this life for your own good (like Bilbo and the others that fell into the rings power) or for the good of all man (which was Frodo's quest)... now we all know Frodo actually didnt finish his quest...someone else *clears throat* :gollum: finished it for him...though not in the way he wanted to...regardless...im sure you see my point...and if not... dont worry...some times I dont see my own pointlol

[Elvenrider]

Right, also it's nt even a religion (as you say it as set...applying to any religion, that is true.) But I think Tolkien even though he did it subconciously if he looked back at it and recognise some aspects of his book, but I think he wouldn't find allegories to the Bible or any other religion, as you guys have said people of all religions find their religion in it. But I think he just had good morals, and that went into his book, Yes, the innocence of a hobbit, the 'one with nature'' of the elves, the courage and heart and faults of men,and the evil in our lives, and lol even sometimes the stubborness of dwarves.;)

[Gollum the Great]

Right, and faith doesnt always have to go back to a religion for say...
its the matter of knowing a truth and holding on to it even when things dont seem like they support it...

[Elvenrider]

EDIT: oops, seems I thought that my post hadn't gotten through because I saw your name on the last post, and that's how it was before I posted lol. and so I posted the same thingf ( I had already copied and pasted it.)

Well, ya your right, I agree totalaramically. lol

[Elfdaughter]

lol - nice one, Archer!

Yip, again, I agree with both of you.

[Gollum the Great]

lol tis an easy mistake my good friend ;)
I wish there were more opened minded people out there to really let them selves go in his writings...its just a wonderful thing all together :)